Author Topic: Speedwork discussion  (Read 212 times)

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Offline escargot

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Speedwork discussion
« on: October 11, 2018, 09:03:47 AM »
So I think I've found a workable strategy.

The last eight years every time I tried to do any speedwork, I ended up getting injured.

Back in 2005 I popped a hamstring really badly just behind my knee in the trail of lights 5k (left leg). The last 200 I put the hammer down and I thought I would be getting close to 17:15. I had to limp to the finish. A pancake sized red circle was where I popped it.

A year ago I popped a hamstring up close to my butt (left leg). I was doing repeat 400's on a trail.

I've been trying to figure this out, but a couple of things have helped to rehabilitate.

1. I'm standing up all day now w/a standup desk.

2. I'm using an elliptical which has these thick rubber bands to warm up and I'm now taking 40 minutes to warm up on this BEFORE I do speed work.

3. I'm doing 1/2 mile repeats w/60 seconds walking in between - 6 of them started at 9 mph and I'm at 9.5 mph now (adding a tenth today)

I never thought I'd need so much warmup.

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 10:53:27 AM »
Quote
"Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet." - MattinSF

I guess you gotta make sure you have a cake?
Blessed are the Nobodies, for Theirs is the Kingdom of Fascinating Stories

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 10:59:23 AM »
3. You are well on your way fitness wise.

As for speedwork in general, for those of us who want to remain competitive some is necessary but we need to find a compromise.

I warm up 20-30 minutes, including some dynamic stretching and for races and faster sessions a set of drills (A&B skips, butt kicks, and high knee running) and a set of pick ups at increasingly faster paces. Also include or start with 2-3 minutes at anaerobic threshold. I don't do a lot of stuff at mile pace or faster, but enough to get by. Usually these reps are at the end of a workout, but before I'm getting over-taxed. Most concerned about hamstrings, achilles, and plantar fascia. So it's pretty much tread lightly, old man.
   
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Offline escargot

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 11:07:39 AM »
3. You are well on your way fitness wise.

As for speedwork in general, for those of us who want to remain competitive some is necessary but we need to find a compromise.

I warm up 20-30 minutes, including some dynamic stretching and for races and faster sessions a set of drills (A&B skips, butt kicks, and high knee running) and a set of pick ups at increasingly faster paces. Also include or start with 2-3 minutes at anaerobic threshold. I don't do a lot of stuff at mile pace or faster, but enough to get by. Usually these reps are at the end of a workout, but before I'm getting over-taxed. Most concerned about hamstrings, achilles, and plantar fascia. So it's pretty much tread lightly, old man.
 


Well you've trained people and know what you're doing. Plus you're national class. I've always been a loner partly because I suck and I'm over-competitive so working out in a group would be a danger because I can't stop myself from trying to win even if I hurt myself. But I never thought so much warmup was necessary. I never did any in high school or even later I would just take a nap at the starting line and then get on the track and run til I puked it out.

I'm going to have a 5k this Sunday so I'm curious what will happen. I know treadmills aren't the same and some conversion charts show 1.5-2% incline makes up for it, but I don't know. I just know that no matter what, if I don't run fast I won't be able to run fast.

Offline escargot

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 11:08:01 AM »
I guess you gotta make sure you have a cake?

I have a base. I've been training for years w/o letup. My resting pulse is 48 and during races I'm never feeling out of breath, but my muscles simply haven't trained to run fast since these injuries and I want to get back there instead of getting into doing the old-man marathon shuffle.

Offline Richard21142

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 03:22:38 PM »
It may be time to rehabilitate your hamstrings with some weight lifting.  The hamstring and quadriceps work together and if the hamstring isn't strong enough, it will pull.


Offline escargot

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 08:42:04 PM »
It may be time to rehabilitate your hamstrings with some weight lifting.  The hamstring and quadriceps work together and if the hamstring isn't strong enough, it will pull.

Yeah I definitely need that. Especially my left leg. I can feel twinging at both places where I popped the hamstring.

I have an old book by John Jessze - "Strength, Power and Muscular Endurance for Runners and Hurdlers"

On page 114 at the bottom it says in a note:

"...Studies have shown that the hamstrings should have 60 percent as much strength as that possessed by the quadriceps."

This site suggests 75 percent.

https://antoniostraining.com/2005/08/what-is-the-proper-ratio-between-quad-and-hamstring-strength/

This one around 60
https://www.sportsrec.com/321322-the-ratio-of-hamstring-strength.html

This one 60
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967430/

They have the equipment at work to do this, so I'm going to see what it is tomorrow.

Offline Richard21142

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2018, 06:00:27 AM »
The numbers I've seen are 70 per cent and two-thirds, so your references are resonable since there isn't a perfect number.  At the advice of my orthopedic surgeon, I've spent the last year working on quadricep strength.  I lift differently than the usual since I lift daily.  I started with 30 pounds but I could feel some pulling on the inside of my knee (I've had knee surgery and tore something on the same knee on my last run).  So I cut back to 27.5 pounds and that was borderline.  I started with ten reps and increased the number of reps by feel, but usually after two weeks, up to 20 reps and then add weight and start at 10 reps again.  Now I'm doing 15 reps with 35 pounds and it is easy.  I also doing hamstring curls with 27.5 pounds


Offline escargot

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2018, 07:49:44 AM »
The numbers I've seen are 70 per cent and two-thirds, so your references are resonable since there isn't a perfect number.  At the advice of my orthopedic surgeon, I've spent the last year working on quadricep strength.  I lift differently than the usual since I lift daily.  I started with 30 pounds but I could feel some pulling on the inside of my knee (I've had knee surgery and tore something on the same knee on my last run).  So I cut back to 27.5 pounds and that was borderline.  I started with ten reps and increased the number of reps by feel, but usually after two weeks, up to 20 reps and then add weight and start at 10 reps again.  Now I'm doing 15 reps with 35 pounds and it is easy.  I also doing hamstring curls with 27.5 pounds

Do you feel twinges or pulling on specific parts?

I feel it at the top of the back where my quads attach to my glutes and lower down close to the kneecap on the quads and it seems to also reach to the side of the hip to the IT band and then this makes the sciatic nerve act up so I feel it in my hip and twinges down the back of the leg and the lower part of my calf.

Offline escargot

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 08:07:53 AM »
Ok so I measured the relative strength.

I can do five reps of knee extension with 130lbs and 70lbs with leg curl, so that's about 53%. Yup. Weak on hamstrings.

Offline Richard21142

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 08:36:59 AM »
I tore my hamstring doing "flat out" sprints in 1964.  In 1979, I had some problems with a tightening in the middle of my hamstring.
The x-rays show scar tissue the length of my hamstring.  The solution was to ice my hamstring and break up the scar tissue with massage (my wife did it).  That worked and my hamstring problems went away; although I was no longer running sprints and sprinting at the end of a road race, isn't the same as pure sprints.




Offline escargot

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Re: Speedwork discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 09:47:51 AM »
I tore my hamstring doing "flat out" sprints in 1964.  In 1979, I had some problems with a tightening in the middle of my hamstring.
The x-rays show scar tissue the length of my hamstring.  The solution was to ice my hamstring and break up the scar tissue with massage (my wife did it).  That worked and my hamstring problems went away; although I was no longer running sprints and sprinting at the end of a road race, isn't the same as pure sprints.

Massage is good. I get a full body massage every two weeks by this lady who does crossfit. She does deep tissue massage getting at places I can't with rollers and the like. I think she uses her elbow somehow. I don't know because I'm face down and I keep my eyes  closed the whole time anyway. She helped me get my shoulder back to normal after it got dislocated.

 

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