Sourdough

[Natasha]

How did it turn out?

I tried again too. I accidentally set my oven to “combination (microwave)” instead of “convection”, and I had metal in it so there was some arcing and electric fire smell about 25 minutes into the bake. I hope I didn’t kill my oven.

The bread is my best one so far though. And I have a good setup for baking: a pizza pan with a heavy pot upside down as a lid.

[Run Amok]

The taste & crust were great!! Did not rise as much as I wanted. But still a good loaf! I mean, I wouldn't serve it to guests unless it was sliced. Dough handling and loaf shaping went better.

Next I may try the food 52 method.

Also, I keep only 20 grams of starter and just feed it up vs discard and that's been great!

[CheryG]

Whoohoooooo!

[Run Amok]

Donovan always doubles and seems pretty active.  But today's feeding is the first time I've seen it really look alive with bubbles actively breaking the surface as I watch. Pretty cool!

[CheryG]

I did my usual sponge method with a Tuscan Herb infused olive oil and it was fabulous but a wee bit overproofed.

Started this one last night, will see how it goes.
https://www.manmadediy.com/no-knead-bread-dutch-oven

[Run Amok]

I'm interested to see if that one you just posted will work out. It seems like it is almost 100% hydration dough??? Did I do the math wrong? (it's like 15 oz flour and 14 oz water?)

Also, Yeah, I think I am going to try your method next, Chery. I went back  & read where you were struggling with autolyse & low % starter recipes. The one I have going right now I started the levain last night with 10 grams of starter, 25 grams each of water & whole grain flour. That is such a tiny amount. It's like 1 tsp of stater, 1 tbs flour, & 2 tbs water or something.

The instructions say to let it sit for 12 hours until bubbles break the surface & it smells ripe (check). Then add 300 grams of water & 390 grams of flour. Then bulk ferment for 4 hours. Then shape & proof in the fridge overnight. I'm interested in trying this because the recipe I've tried twice now (once disaster and once ok but not enough rise) did it the opposite. It was a 4 hour bulk ferment + 12 hour in the fridge. Then 4 hours proofing at room temp then 2-4 hours after shaping.

Also, some stuff doesn't make sense to me. Like, why does this recipe call for 60 grams of levain which is: 10 grams of 100% hydration starter, 25 grams each of flour/water-- instead of just 60 grams of fed starter? I guess the levain would the tiniest bit higher hydration?

[Run Amok]

...and here is the mystery of bread. I have been doing my stretch & folds every 30 minutes for 4 hours on this loaf and it is coming along. I am not sure if it is because my starter is becoming more mature & active or I am getting better at working the dough or... who knows. But I am amazed had how much rise I'm getting out of this. Not the same kind of rise I'd expect from yeast-- but I'm definitely getting some airpockets and my dough is looking very much like the authors in her video.

If you have 25 minutes, I this is worth watching. I've been re-watching it as each step as I go today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP3TKWlGnA

[CheryG]

It is a mystery, lol!

I don't have an answer to your fed starter vs levain, I've wondered the same thing and even tried to google for it.  The hydration can be controlled no matter what one does, so I think it's really a matter of preference and maybe fridge space?  I don't know.

That's a great video, but I still get stymied by the need to attend to the bread every 30 minutes or so for four hours.  I need something that I don't have to babysit that much and I'm willing to sacrifice an open crumb for it.  Starter, hydration and retardation are what make a loaf "sour", correct?

What I need an answer to is this- when I would make the pizza dough (neapolitan) it was a commercial yeast based, long mix, low hydration dough.  And yet it bakes up with massive holes, a very open crumb unless weighted down with toppings.  How is that possible?

A cool read:
https://thebakingnetwork.com/protecting-gluten-in-a-weak-dough/

[CheryG]

The recipe I posted didn't really work, IMO.  Too wet to begin with, I added a little flour to be able to pick it up.  I'd shape before going in the fridge if I did it again. It rose OK and was proofed enough, but I think it's impossibe to go from not shaped to bakeable within half an hour. I debated letting it sit a little longer, but the dough looked like it was ready.  It was strange. It still had spring and the taste is OK.

[Run Amok]

Yes, so retarding the dough increases sour because it encourages acetic acid to form. (I read that somewhere). So, if you want a more sour flavor, I think you have to ferment over a long period of time.

You can get a similar thing going with regular yeast doughs that sit in the fridge for a long time. Like those no-knead rolls I like to make--  by the end of the week, that dough takes on a mild sour flavor. And-- great Q re neopolitan pizza dough. My favorite dough is similar-- long mix-- then it sits in the fridge for 24 hours. It's great dough but kind of a pain. Anyway-- I will ask my dad about the levan vs starter and the pizza dough question. I want him to come over & bake with me anyway.

I don't mind fussing with the dough once an hour (or in this case every 30 minutes) during the week. It gives me a reason to get up from my desk and I can do the stretch & fold while I'm on the phone. It's a no-go on the weekend though. The recipe I have in progress right now is an interesting one time-wise because everything is pretty open ended. Like, you make the levain and let it sit on the counter from 8-12 hours. There is no mention or caution of it going past time-- I think because you use only a tiny bit of starter to water/flour so it won't run out of food, maybe? Then-- yes, you have to attend to it for about 6 straight hours but when you start the fussing and when you bake are kinda up to you (levain + water & flour-- do a 5 minute mix, then a 20 minute rest, then add salt and do another 5-10 minute mix, then rest 30 minutes & stretch & fold every 30 -45 minutes for 2-4 hours, the pre-shape & rest for 10-30 mins, then final shape & in the fridge for 8-24 hours). Otherwise I'm trying to calculate where I am at the end of this complicated recipe & whether I will be able to bake the dough right on time!

[CheryG]

Ug!

I like my recipe, lol!
AM- make sponge, feed starter.
Noonish- add flour, etc to make dough. 
2-3 hours later, shape. (Do not go for a ride, there will not be enough time)
1 to 2 hours later, bake.

I think the large amount of starter used gives it a big kick start in the flavor department.

[Run Amok]

Yep, I'll definitely be trying that next! It's so heartbreaking when you work on a loaf of bread for like 3 straight days and it is a dud!

[CheryG]

Totally!!!

The last time I made it I did do stretch and folds instead of mixing thoroughly.  The crumb was more...lacy?  I guess the way I think about it is that you can take the gluten and either layer it or knit it.  Mixers knit it- close crumb. Stretch and fold layers it and allows for bigger bubbles.  I also read once that the bigger bubbles are also gluten degradation- some of the strands snap under the pressure of CO2 production and instead of small bubbles beside each other it becomes one big bubble...

[Run Amok]

I'm not really obsessed with an open crumb. This is sandwich  bread. My bigger concern is a nice crust, yummy flavor, & a nice texture of crumb (tender, springy, on the wet side).

[Run Amok]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSzQfSDDIL8

Alright, here is the result of all those stretches & folds yesterday.

First time proofing in a basket (I used a bowl w/ a floured towel) & my bread stuck to the towel like a mofo -- which was a major bummer!

When I got it out of the basket it totally pancaked and was almost a runny texture. 

I don't have a lame so I score w/ a knife. I think I got a little aggressive. My scoring needs some work.

Not sure why it's lopsided. Maybe because one side stuck to the basket more than theother and got too jostled? Maybe because I use a cast iron pan with another pan inverted over it instead of a dutch oven & there was a small gap on one side (not sure that was the case-- just a theory).

[CheryG]

Oh no about the towel RA!!!  I overflour everything because I'm so afraid of doing that.  It probably did deflate more in some places than others.  How does it taste?

I'm doing a rosemary infused olive oil bread today, and did stretch and folds because it got me out of hauling wood every few minutes, lol.

I have to admit that when I have the time I like the zen feel of stretch and folds.  It's easier to know where the bread is int he proofing stages, I think.  I did coils today rather than fold.

I just mailed some starter to a friend and have been trying to out together a sort of recipe to go with it.  I'm trying to keep it as user friendly as possible.  She's my guinea pig, lol.

[Run Amok]

Post your recipe here when you get to it!

It tasted good. Great crumb. Maybe a little too open for my preferred application actually. Crust ok. Not amazing but ok. I think on my next go-round I will try rolls. I realized that dedicating a whole shelf in my fridge to overnight proofing pre-formed rolls is a no-go so it will have to either be the KA retared bulk ferment type or your quicker method.

I definitely think that my fist couple of failures had a lot to do with not knowing how to deal with the sticky blobby mass of dough. I'm getting better at that.

I'm such a crazy person about buying kitchen tools I keep procrastinating buying bread stuff. But, I think I'm ready. I think I am still leaning toward stones w/ roasting cover vs a dutch oven because rolls are my goal.

[CheryG]

I think the stones and cover are a great idea!  I need another banneton..... off to King Arthur I go!

A work in progress- I'm trying to keep it simple without "gatekeeping" language. I want my friend to be able to bake this without knowing hydration, etc.  I've played around with this recipe enough to think it's pretty foolproof amd durable.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Rc3uMfMtvssxlUYYzlGDG-uHwoHC7Pvqoy1K8ByVQc/edit?usp=drivesdk

[Run Amok]

The recipe I posted didn't really work, IMO.  Too wet to begin with, I added a little flour to be able to pick it up.  I'd shape before going in the fridge if I did it again. It rose OK and was proofed enough, but I think it's impossibe to go from not shaped to bakeable within half an hour. I debated letting it sit a little longer, but the dough looked like it was ready.  It was strange. It still had spring and the taste is OK.

I missed this. So, I feel this way about blogs too: anyone can put a recipe on the internet and proclaim it success. You have a lot of people who don't really know what excellent bread is, or are just fine with decent. I mean, what I made yesterday tasted good & totally works for us-- but that doesn't make it good bread, iykwim! But, also, what works in one kitchen & climate might not work as well in another?

& then in the next breath, I'll say:

I'm excited to try your method though!

Your photo made me realize maybe my starter isn't as vigorous as I thought-- mine never looks like that! But, it's also darker than yours (I usually feed it on rye). I am bulking it up right now and I'll bake again either tomorrow or friday.

This one is on my list to try too (as seen on  youtube). He does a nice job of making the process simple. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57611/my-1st-ever-sourdough-bake-no-knead-style

[CheryG]

It's kind of like how riding was for me- it took about 15 years before  someone said to me that there are really only six things that one can do to the horse (whoa, go, turn, etc.), and out of those six things we end up making a Grand Prix test.  My lesson in the forge, the instructor started off by saying "therr are only five ways you can move steel....

Following recipes doesn't really teach what probably amounts to the five ways one can influence dough. Because say, the recipe I followed might really hinge around using a refrigerator that is far warmer than mine.  So that's why it works for him and I had trouble.  A cold dough final proof doesn't act or feel like a warm dough final proof, as far as determining if it's ready, IMO.  Warm dough is easier to read for me.