Transgender woman to compete at NCAA Divsion I cross country

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Conservative sites, Letsrun, Daily Caller, Washington Times have already picked up on this, but here's a pretty good article from the Bozeman, MT paper. She'll be competing for University of Montana (Missoula). I have mixed feelings about this. She was a good runner as a male--running 1:55 for 800 m and 14:38 for 5000. She'll run slower with the hormone treatment, but will still be competitive in the women's events. What happens when a runner with 1:48/13:30 speed (or better) transforms? She'd be breaking world records and there is a huge financial incentive for that level of performance. NCAA is amateur so that's not an issue.

This story will likely hit the major news outlets soon.

https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/trailblazer-assigned-male-at-birth-belgrade-runner-competing-on-um/article_390da521-efdf-590e-88e6-053d303aa1b0.html

[RandMart]

This story will likely hit the major news outlets soon.

Deadspin at best. Sorry, but no one  - other than us - cares

A woman from the USWNT [maybe] kicking field goals in the NFL? THAT'S the story

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Deadspin at best. Sorry, but no one  - other than us - cares

A woman from the USWNT [maybe] kicking field goals in the NFL? THAT'S the story

A beer for WP or NYT by Tuesday! - considering Philly half in Nov. so we can collect there.

And go Carli!

[CheryG]

I don't have mixed feelings about this.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Fair enough CG. I should qualify mine. I'm glad that she is continuing to run and compete and has found a path forward with her gender. And I want to see how she does this year. This is a rare case now and will likely not have a big effect on the rankings and all. And since she's been on scholarship as a male, not likely to take that away from women on the team. And at the level of open runners in the road and trail scene having transgender athletes compete as women won't affect BQs and such. Would affect prizes at the local turkey trot or fun run, but that stuff is usually just swag or a $20 gift certificate. However, I can see a lot of women who wouldn't like that either and can agree with them (so yes, I'm ambivalent there).

When you are getting into higher level athletics I'm more inclined to support a separate division for transgender and intersex athletes--that was more or less my stand with Caster Semenya. And I think the governing bodies (IAAF, USATF and similar for other countries, NCAA, and even the high school level, need to come up with some sort of policy.   

 
 

[BonitaApplebum]

I guess my question is, is anyone really transitioning from male to female for financial gain?

It seems easy to point fingers but it also seems unlikely to me that anyone would go through that kind of transition just to make money at races. That might be a *side effect* but can't possibly be the primary impetus here.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

I guess my question is, is anyone really transitioning from male to female for financial gain?

It seems easy to point fingers but it also seems unlikely to me that anyone would go through that kind of transition just to make money at races. That might be a *side effect* but can't possibly be the primary impetus here.

No, not at this point. But there is huge gain to be had if some athletes decide to do that. Here's what they could do at the college and high school level at least. Keep the competition open to transgender athletes, but either they don't score points for the team or if they do then bump the places for awards down. For example, June might well be an all-American this year, and will probably be at the top of her conference. Top 35 at the NCAA championships get all-American, and if she earns that she gets an award. But so does 36th place. It gets more difficult with pro sports and making championship teams, and we're not that far off from having that come up.

[BonitaApplebum]

No, not at this point. But there is huge gain to be had if some athletes decide to do that. Here's what they could do at the college and high school level at least. Keep the competition open to transgender athletes, but either they don't score points for the team or if they do then bump the places for awards down. For example, June might well be an all-American this year, and will probably be at the top of her conference. Top 35 at the NCAA championships get all-American, and if she earns that she gets an award. But so does 36th place. It gets more difficult with pro sports and making championship teams, and we're not that far off from having that come up.

If you don’t score points for your team, what’s the point of being on the team, though? Seems like the argument would be that a trans team member would be a waste of space on the roster and would be discriminated against because of that, when it came to making cuts on the team?

[Coyote Mas Loco]

If you don’t score points for your team, what’s the point of being on the team, though? Seems like the argument would be that a trans team member would be a waste of space on the roster and would be discriminated against because of that, when it came to making cuts on the team?

It's an option, maybe not ideal. However, we have parallel examples now on the masters circuit. USATF allows foreign nationals to compete at open and masters championships, but they do not count in the rankings or score for teams. They do get recognition at the awards and are listed in the results. But the placings go to the American citizens. And in XC skiing it's quite common for European collegians to compete at USA Nationals, and they are quite good. Again they compete but don't score.

[BonitaApplebum]

It's an option, maybe not ideal. However, we have parallel examples now on the masters circuit. USATF allows foreign nationals to compete at open and masters championships, but they do not count in the rankings or score for teams. They do get recognition at the awards and are listed in the results. But the placings go to the American citizens. And in XC skiing it's quite common for European collegians to compete at USA Nationals, and they are quite good. Again they compete but don't score.

Interesting. I don't know a lot about those sports. What's the point of competing if you can't score?

I don't know what the right thing is. We've separated sports in these distinct male/female columns for so long, it's hard to think outside the box now. It's difficult to see a way forward that doesn't 'other' or discriminate against trans people. Trans people have every right to be trans... it just really stinks that if they are athletes they wind up losing out, or having to choose between transitioning and competing.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Interesting. I don't know a lot about those sports. What's the point of competing if you can't score?

I don't know what the right thing is. We've separated sports in these distinct male/female columns for so long, it's hard to think outside the box now. It's difficult to see a way forward that doesn't 'other' or discriminate against trans people. Trans people have every right to be trans... it just really stinks that if they are athletes they wind up losing out, or having to choose between transitioning and competing.

For now the right thing is to let her run because she has followed the rules. In the longer term, we'll see, hopefully they'll figure something that is as fair for all as can be.

Today June Eastwood ran 14:33. For 4 km, so 5:39 a mile. 7th overall and 2nd on the team and about the level of an 18:00 5K runner. So the Big Sky is not falling. Now of course there are those on letsrun claiming she's sandbagging for now to gain acceptance and will unleash some furious races later in the season. I'm of the thought of don't think so, and that maybe she'll level off at about a 17:00 5K, not 15:00.

[RandMart]

Thank you for using the right pronouns

Some people would go out of their way not to

[CheryG]

Maybe college sport should be limited to activities where men and women compete on equal footing.  I say this as someone who attended a football dominated high school amd have always questioned its role in the development of students.

[CheryG]

Women's sport, to this gen Xer, is new.  I don't think we're even done exploring the science of how to best develop the female body for sport, I still have yet to see a marathon training plan that best utilizes menstrual phases.  Probably because I don't function in a kids world I don't see it, but as far as my world is concerned I'm not seeing women raised with the psychological expectation that they participate in sport.  What I'm seeing is that in a very subtle way, women still feel guilty about it, still struggle with having to need permission to do it.  I feel it imapcts how the body develops as much as adding a mental hurdle.  Why don't more women train for ultras? What I hear most often is that it requires too much time away from their family and lives.  It's complicated.

When those things happen, and I get to see the results of it, then we'll be able to have more equality with someone who is raised male. A line was drawn, we cant5be expected to now throw it away.

To me, saying that inclusion is more important than competition reinforces the underlying theme that women's sport doesn't really matter anyway, because we all know they wouldn't really win overall.

[diablita]

To me, saying that inclusion is more important than competition reinforces the underlying theme that women's sport doesn't really matter anyway, because we all know they wouldn't really win overall.

which isn't even true all the time

[SnarlyMarly]

which isn't even true all the time

Nope. Always depends on who shows up to the race/event.  There is always a chance that any ability actually win.   We “like” to always say but such and such won this endurance event.   But how loaded was the men’s field.   If you look historically at that endurance event, a female overall win is an anomaly.    The 100 mile male record is a solid hour better than female.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Although as indicated above for now, participation of transgender athletes at an elite/competitive level is so rare that it's not yet an issue. This is the first case of a Division I athlete ever. So if they have 2000 or 3000 athletes a year in the system (just a guess), and maybe 1000 to 2000 on scholarships at Division I, Eastwood's participation at the 0.01% level. But yes precedence matters and hardly anyone would want to see a situation where the top 5 places in each track event and 15 of the top 20 in cross country and transgender athletes. I just don't think that will happen.

We have women's and men's sports coexisting for nearly 50 years with Title IX, and the funding and support at the developmental level (scholastic through college) is moving toward balance. Are things equal? Probably not, but it's a huge difference from when I was growing up in the early and mid-70s. For the past 20 or 25 years it's been harder for men to get track and cross country scholarships because so many programs have been cut to achieve a balance of scholarships with the sacred cow of American football. So for running at least, men have paid a price for equality.

I still think an inclusive system is possible--some would say that it's watered down "everybody wins" but where you allow transgender athletes to participate and score, but if they or their team displaces another athlete or team, then those get to score/participate at the championship level. For now at least the occurrence of transgender participation at such a level is so rare, the sport can accommodate the additional depth and no one loses out. Say at a regional championship they take usually take 5 teams to nationals and one of those teams has a is transgender athlete then the region gets to take 6 teams to nationals. And if the transgender runner happens to be all-region and and all-American, well the the 11th and 36th runner also gets that that honor at those respective races. Same goes for scholarship opportunities. Build an endowment.

I probably make not fucking sense to most of you, but to me I should be rule maker and arbiter of the NCAA rules - or other levels - on this matter.