Sourdough

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The sheen stage is perfect development, a short while after the climb.

Over proofed feels fluffy and the dough will indent.

You can control the rise by using different yeasts and adjusting the temperature of your liquid as well as the proofing temperature.  It all depends on the type of bread you want to make.  When I'm making a honey oatmeal sandwich bread I go for a fast rise- super warm water, warm proofing area.  But a pizza dough that I'm going to either greeze or long retard, ice cold water (even ice on a cold day).  The kneading itself produces friction and warms the dough a little.

That’s great to hear. I think the mixing was perfect. It had a nice sheen to it. But it way over proofed. The first rise said a ‘warm spot in the kitchen’ so I put it in the oven which was 87 degrees for most of the rise. The second rise didn’t specify so I put it back in the oven and it was seriously poofy at 30 min. I think next time I need to just find a corner a little above room temp and see how that goes...

This was the recipe I used.
https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/230396/real-ny-jewish-rye-bread/

In spite of the over proofing, it still turned out not horrible! Definitely edible, just not there yet.

[Run Amok]

Just as a PSA, if your dough overproofs you can reform it and let it proof again likely without too much of a problem, unless you used bread-machine yeast (which is designed to have one, really fast, rise)

My dad turned me on to the King Arthur Flour recipes a few years ago and they are really tried & true and seem to work very well for me. They also have baker hotline you can call and I like that their recipes can be made either by volume (if you must) or by weights & measures. You might give their caraway rye dough a try. https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/caraway-rye-bread-recipe  They include some interesting comments about the nature of working with rye, that might help too.

I also have made the mistake of going too warm (either water or room temp) to help out my little yeasty friends. I am finding they are more hearty than I give them credit for and am learning to trust that even cold water in a long ferment will go well. I mean, I know this. In the summer sometimes you need to use ice water. But it's still hard to wrap my head around.

The brotchen I made on friday got pretty rave reviews so I'm trying again today. It involves a 12 hour starter, followed by a 3 hour bulk rise (folded every hour), forming into rolls which then get a 2 hour room temp rise, followed by 3 hours in the fridge. So, a bit more work than the typical. But, they did come out really good. My dough seems a bit dryer this time (though I weighed everything to the gram in both cases) and I realized 1 hour into my bulk rise that it was only 65 degrees in the house (oopsie) so here's hoping it works out ok. 

ETA update: well the recipe says the first rise won't be much and then it will get stronger each rise, and that is what happened. So, now my rolls are formed and rising on the counter 1-2 hours, then 2-3 hours in the fridge and then into the oven. so far so good.

[CheryG]

Woohoo picote!

I've never found that reforming an overproofed dough works very well, but that could be because my overproofing experiences were a sandwich type bread that was a bit heavy on the honey.  It develops an off, not sour taste and has an oily consistency.

I'm making the usual sourdough today, the first rise was 8 hours, the second rise three hours.

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Second attempt came out of the oven today. I didn’t realize I needed to take it out of the loaf pan right away, so the crust got a bit soft, but overall a success. Flavor and texture are great and it looks fantastic. Loaf yesterday just sunk to the point that it was hard to make a sandwich. Now I just need to figure out how best to store it to keep fresh.

And I tried the no knead rolls as well. Thought I’d make a half batch, since it’s mainly DH who will be eating them. Unfortunately, I forgot and added the full salt and yeast, so ended up making a huge batch! Hopefully they turn out ok when we start cooking them! Need to get a good seed mix!

I’m really enjoying the process.

[Run Amok]

Picote, nice! Congrats on a successful second bake! I think that your rolls will still work. The extra yeast means it will probably poof up a lot.

my Brotchen yesterday were my best rolls yet. My next experiment will be to freeze them partway through the cold proof so that I don't have to bake off the whole recipe at once and/or babysit dough every other day.

I'd like to try making english muffins next. Maybe next time we have t's dd over.

[picote]

Picote, nice! Congrats on a successful second bake! I think that your rolls will still work. The extra yeast means it will probably poof up a lot.

my Brotchen yesterday were my best rolls yet. My next experiment will be to freeze them partway through the cold proof so that I don't have to bake off the whole recipe at once and/or babysit dough every other day.

Ha! I just went with making a full batch, so we're going to be eating a LOT of rolls and bread over the next week... Have you ever tried freezing the dough for these?

[Run Amok]

Ha! I just went with making a full batch, so we're going to be eating a LOT of rolls and bread over the next week... Have you ever tried freezing the dough for these?

I haven't. But that is part of the beauty of them-- you make the dough and it can sit in your fridge for a week! So normally I would make a half batch and then bake off 1-4 rolls/day.  I have found that after about day 4, they do bake up a little more dense though.

I asked KA if they thought I could use their freeze & bake later method for rolls and they were concerned that the gluten wouldn't have chance to develop. With the Brotchen, it seems like I could maybe freeze them just before they go into the fridge... at least for a couple of days. it's an interesting recipe because it uses less than 1 tsp of yeast. Amazing that it works, right?

I've definitely considered giving some extras away on but nothing. 

[Run Amok]

Chery-- I can't remember if I shared this story or not. But, I think I've mentioned that my dad is a baker. So, whenver he comes to dinner he is always bringing something interesting from his own kitchen. Usually it's like local wheat or some weird flour someone gave him to experiment with. But, this last time it was sourdough baked with 400 year old starter from Denmark one of his fans brought him. SO COOL, right???

I would like to start my own starter but it will have to wait until after we get back from our vacation, which starts thursday. I'm also not sure if i'll be able to keep a starter alive given my travel schedule. But, I have also seen people share starter on but nothing, so if all else fails, I will do that (or ask my dad, I guess  )

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One other question for the more experienced bakers... how much does the actual brand of bread flour matter? DH bought KA bread flour for my first experiments, but the larger bag at costco is so much less expensive. I get that water content may vary, so you may need more or less flour, but is there a discernible quality difference?


ETA, sorry for the sourdough hijack!

[witchypoo]

the protein may vary too.  i use KA flour for everything.

as re the cheap stuff - is it unbleached/unbromated?  i'd probably give it a whirl, if so.  but i wouldn't buy it otherwise.

[Run Amok]

I read somewhere that KA and gold medal both mill to a specific protein content, which theoretically yields more consistent results (but the weather and the time of year the wheat was milled can also impact your results). So, I just buy the KA. Also, I find their recipes reliable and consistent, and they test them using their flours (which again, are milled to spec). I'm not really an experienced baker though. I need to follow a recipe/percentages but a more experienced baker could probably make anything work and adjust on the fly. I need all the help I can get!  OTOH, people have been making bread without percentages and with "whatever" flour for a long time, so I think we also tend to overthink all of it!

But, also, it was SO cool to be in pompeii this fall and wander into the bakeries. You know? Like we've been baking the same wheat into the same bread for a very long time.

[picote]

the protein may vary too.  i use KA flour for everything.

as re the cheap stuff - is it unbleached/unbromated?  i'd probably give it a whirl, if so.  but i wouldn't buy it otherwise.

Interesting. I think it's bleached. Pretty sure this was the stuff I saw there this weekend:
https://www.costcobusinessdelivery.com/Ardent-Mills-Bread-Flour%2c-25-lbs.product.10182367.html

If it doesn't work well, it's a LOT of flour!


ETA, it looks like they sell KA unbleached flour, but not specifically bread flour

[witchypoo]

i don't use "bread" flour.

[Run Amok]

I use the AP flour and it's been fine for me. Their AP flour is on the higher protein side anyway.

[CheryG]

I adore KA for many reasons, I think the company is great.  So that's what I use at home. The flour is quality and consistent.  Around here it's kind of a status thing, if anyone asks you had better have a darn good reason for not using it, lol.  I live a little over an hour from their store.

All purpose flour is just fine. 

That said, lol.... I am anal and I do have bread flour for bread, AP flour for average stuff/old recipes and cake flour for finer cakes and springerle cookies.  An old fashioned Whacky Cake gets AP flour, because that's what people expect and honestly I think the ingredients would crush a lighter flour.
 I'm about to get some high gluten flour for pizza dough, because I toss my dough and I do think it makes a difference.

[CheryG]

I also use their white whole wheat instead of regular whole wheat.  Sometimes whole wheat is just too... wheat and IMO the white whole wheat adds flavor without that cardboard taste.

https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2016/07/21/substitute-bread-flour-all-purpose-flour/

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Hmmm, now that I know costco has KA flour, I may just try a small bag of the all purpose and see how it works. If all goes well, I can buy the large bag. Have the sandwich rolls RA posted coming out of the oven in a few minutes. They look amazing.

[Run Amok]

I almost bought KA bread flour yesterday because of this thread. But, it was $12/5lbs vs $6/5lb like I normally pay. We ended up eating all 8 rolls I made in the last batch and I made a batch of these to go with soup last night. I need to stop. We can't eat this much bread!

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-wrap-bread-recipe

Picote-- how did those rolls turn out?

[RioG]

Oh, this thread is a fun find!

We have a local mill that's been in operation for something like 200 years.  I buy 20lb bags of their flour

I'm going to have to google sourdough starters.  I had one once but it was refrigerated.

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[BonitaApplebum]

You guys are making me want to get back into making bread!

All the KA talk is making me think it’s time for another pilgrimage to Vermont... even though I dropped a ridiculous amount of dough (heh) there last time I went!