Author Topic: flat feet and barefoot running  (Read 22984 times)

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Offline Virginia Plain

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flat feet and barefoot running
« on: April 28, 2015, 02:58:47 PM »
I've had knee pain for year and recently started having back pain.  Saw a chiropractor and he did a scan of my feet showing that my arches have completely collapsed.  He suggested orthotics and a couple more adjustments and I should be right as rain.

I just spoke to a very good friend of mine who's a massage therapist and literally read medical journals for fun.  He also read Born to Run and was singing the praises of barefoot running.  So, HE told me to forget the orthotics and claims that I could repair my arches w/barefoot running. 

DH used to run in minimus but doesn't anymore and I was very anti barefoot running.  I'm pretty sure DH quit using them b/c he was having back pain. 

I'm curious.  Anyone have any input? 
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline Magic Microbe

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 03:02:17 PM »
Never in a million years would I run barefoot.

Belgian Lace

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 03:06:18 PM »
Never in a million years would I run barefoot.

...or listen to someone without medical training tell me I could repair my arches.

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 03:07:45 PM »
Never in a million years would I run barefoot.

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Offline Fionn mac Cumhail

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 03:07:46 PM »
I'm a maximalist when it comes to shoes...Hoka, baby...



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Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2015, 03:15:04 PM »
I'm a maximalist when it comes to shoes...Hoka, baby...



IN BEFORE THE LOCK

Yeah, me too.  Not quite Hoka but total stability. 
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Offline rocketgirl

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2015, 03:15:08 PM »
Never in a million years would I run barefoot.

111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

I don't even walk barefoot outside the shower.
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Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 03:16:57 PM »
111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

I don't even walk barefoot outside the shower.

I'm barefoot all the time outside of work and running.
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline Clb

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 03:24:16 PM »
McDougall's take on barefoot running was pretty in-depth into the science behind it, how running barefoot causes us to adjust our stride, placement, etc in response to the foot sensitivity. Basically, if it hurts don't  land like that. But he also ends up saying barefoot running isn't  practical for most of us, but maybe letting our current running shoes wear down more in between replacements is.
I can't  do his descriptions justice but you might really appreciate reading those chapters again, assumimg you've read the book before.
He also describes how his arches improved the more he ran as the foot muscles got stronger and recreated the arch shape. Again, his narrative is better than my summary.
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Offline Run Amok

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2015, 03:25:44 PM »
I think the fad is going more towards maximalist these days. I am pretty sure vibram got sued over their claims re: barefoot running and I've heard pts and orthos say they saw a lot of stress fractures in the feet due to barefoot running. So, YMMV, but not a direction I'd personally go.

Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2015, 03:27:06 PM »
McDougall's take on barefoot running was pretty in-depth into the science behind it, how running barefoot causes us to adjust our stride, placement, etc in response to the foot sensitivity. Basically, if it hurts don't  land like that. But he also ends up saying barefoot running isn't  practical for most of us, but maybe letting our current running shoes wear down more in between replacements is.
I can't  do his descriptions justice but you might really appreciate reading those chapters again, assumimg you've read the book before.
He also describes how his arches improved the more he ran as the foot muscles got stronger and recreated the arch shape. Again, his narrative is better than my summary.

Yeah, that's pretty much the conversation I just had w/my massage pal.  I was just curious if anyone had any actual experince w/it. 

Either way, it motivated me to see an actual foot doctor before jumping into orthotics from the chiropractor.  So, I'm doing that on Tuesday.
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2015, 03:27:51 PM »
I think the fad is going more towards maximalist these days. I am pretty sure vibram got sued over their claims re: barefoot running and I've heard pts and orthos say they saw a lot of stress fractures in the feet due to barefoot running. So, YMMV, but not a direction I'd personally go.

That's right, there was a class action against them
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline The Turtle Whisperer

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2015, 03:29:07 PM »
Not relative to the OP, but I have very fond childhood memories of sneaking out on a private golf course at night and running barefoot... man, that lush grass... it felt great! 

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Offline Trotter

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 03:30:18 PM »
I like minimalist footwear. At least the no-stability stuff; cushioning is a different story (so I like Hoka too). The stability shoes I used to wear drive me nuts now.

But I don't have flat feet. If I did & were looking to run without overpronation-induced pain, I'd do the orthotics thing in a heartbeat. Particularly if I were already partial to stability shoes.

Fuck those arch-repairing dirty-footed hippies.

siamesedream

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 03:32:18 PM »
I've run barefoot on the beach, but I would never do it on any other surface.

Offline MoCo

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 03:34:29 PM »
I'm partial to minimal-but-cushioned (I wear Altras).  I did run in FF for a while... but I'm not a teeny lady and it was not doing me long term good.  It did teach me how not to be a thuddy heel pounder and to be more aware of where I put my feet.

I'd say your best bet is to see a really good physical therapist for a movement screen and a second opinion.  Podiatrists make money on orthotics, and most of them only look at feet and ankles, but you need to consider the entire movement chain since a small change to the way your feet interface with the ground could wreak havoc all the way up your body.

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Offline Run Amok

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 03:37:29 PM »
That said, I'd also take what the chiro said with a grain of salt. A foot scan? A couple of adjustments? For fallen arches?  :skep: I'd probably go see a good ortho before investing much in the chiro thing.

Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 03:39:58 PM »
I'm partial to minimal-but-cushioned (I wear Altras).  I did run in FF for a while... but I'm not a teeny lady and it was not doing me long term good.  It did teach me how not to be a thuddy heel pounder and to be more aware of where I put my feet.

I'd say your best bet is to see a really good physical therapist for a movement screen and a second opinion.  Podiatrists make money on orthotics, and most of them only look at feet and ankles, but you need to consider the entire movement chain since a small change to the way your feet interface with the ground could wreak havoc all the way up your body.



I've seen 2 physical therapist, one is the husband of Vicky Huber.  Neither of them picked up on my flat arches.
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline HobbyJogger

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 03:40:17 PM »
Assuming that barefoot running was a great strategy, couldn't you get the same or better results with targeted exercises to do the same thing? Specifically, strengthenand improve recruitment of some stabilizer muscles.
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Offline Run Amok

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 03:47:16 PM »
I've seen 2 physical therapist, one is the husband of Vicky Huber.  Neither of them picked up on my flat arches.

But, it's possible the flat arches aren't the issue the chiro is suggesting.

I've tried going the chiro + manual manipulation with my last two injuries. In both cases the (sports medicine focused) chiro had the wrong diagnosis or gave me bad advice. When I went to an actual dr with actual medical training they got me on the path to recovery.

I'm not sure I'd look to a PT for diagnostics. Though the one I'm working with currently definitely knew just how to fix me up!

Assuming that barefoot running was a great strategy, couldn't you get the same or better results with targeted exercises to do the same thing? Specifically, strengthenand improve recruitment of some stabilizer muscles.

This is exactly what my pt consisted of. Progressively challenging stabilizer muscles, fixing imbalances, and working on strengthening specific areas of weakness.

Offline makeda

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2015, 03:49:57 PM »
I envy the feet and ankles of people who can do that. It would hobble me.
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Offline rocketgirl

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2015, 04:03:52 PM »
I envy the feet and ankles of people who can do that. It would hobble me.

1.

I'm currently hobbled in my newish running shoes.  Something about the fit with the inserts. They are the same inserts I've always used, but this shoe has a more fitted midfoot (and is also less of a behemoth than my old shoes - it is stability and my old ones are motion control) and so my feet sit differently on the inserts.  I'm considering trying a smaller size of the inserts to place the metatarsal support differently, but at $50 a pop for inserts, ouch (and they're a bit deep to just go in my kick about Clark's).  I really do like the lighter shoes.  My ankles are too damn tiny to carry around shoes that weight a ton; and I think this contributes to my achilles tendonitis issues.  (On the other hand, limping because my metatarsalgia acted up just from wandering around Home Depot is not cool.)  But $50 inserts are still way cheaper than NEW new running shoes. 
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Offline merigayle

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2015, 04:12:08 PM »
The people who seem to benefit the most from bare foot running are the ones who do small amounts a couple times a week. Like a mile or two, then the rest of the time wear shoes. I had orthotics but prefer the Sole Heat Moldable insoles, work better than orthotics, imo. I am also a maximus shoe lover.
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Offline Mrtambourineman

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2015, 04:21:53 PM »
I have orthotics now and boy would I love to not have them.  If there was something I could have done to fix my feet without orthotics (or foot crack as I like to think of them), I'd try it first. 
I've been doing this how long?

Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2015, 04:22:47 PM »
I have orthotics now and boy would I love to not have them.  If there was something I could have done to fix my feet without orthotics (or foot crack as I like to think of them), I'd try it first. 

Why don't you like them?
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline Handsome Jack

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2015, 04:26:47 PM »
I've seen barefoot runners suffer mid way through marathons on very hot asphalt and in very cold conditions. I've seen others be just fine with both. Not for me though. I like my Hookas.

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Offline Mrtambourineman

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2015, 04:27:43 PM »
Why don't you like them?

Because its a pain to find shoes that will fit them, when you do find shoes that fit them I find that they're tippy - I can't tell you the number of times I've rolled over on my ankle because of the extra height and instability they cause.  Its a pain having to move your orthotic from shoe to shoe.  And because your feet get trained to the orthotic, it becomes difficult to walk without them.  I've become very limited in the types of sandles I can wear now - birkenstocks, some Nike's, Chacos, etc.  Essentially only things that come with built in arches will provide the support I need. Crocs on the other hand work very well - if you can handle looking goofy.

If you wear women's dress shoes you'll need a second pair - one for dress shoes and one for active shoes (runners).  That would be another $300 or so for me up here.   

 
I've been doing this how long?

Offline Fionn mac Cumhail

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2015, 04:31:41 PM »
I've seen barefoot runners suffer mid way through marathons on very hot asphalt and in very cold conditions. I've seen others be just fine with both. Not for me though. I like my Hookas.

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Offline camelia bedelia

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2015, 04:36:23 PM »
But, it's possible the flat arches aren't the issue the chiro is suggesting.



1.  Chiro's also routinely diagnosis leg length discrepancy even though you can't accurately diagnosis it on physical exam alone.  No surprise that I would trust a good PT over a chiro, I suppose. 

That said - "fixing your arches" by barefoot runnin?   :nono:

Offline merigayle

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2015, 04:42:58 PM »
1.  Chiro's also routinely diagnosis leg length discrepancy even though you can't accurately diagnosis it on physical exam alone.  No surprise that I would trust a good PT over a chiro, I suppose. 

That said - "fixing your arches" by barefoot runnin?   :nono:
They can determine a leg length discrepancy due to a muscular issue, but not bone length. I have gone into a massage with a leg length difference and come out after the massage totally balanced.
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Offline Ice Cream

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2015, 05:05:19 PM »
I would never run barefoot. Not only because it seems counter intuitive to me, but also because I would be worried about stepping on nails, glass, etc.

Offline rocketgirl

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2015, 05:11:22 PM »
Because its a pain to find shoes that will fit them, when you do find shoes that fit them I find that they're tippy - I can't tell you the number of times I've rolled over on my ankle because of the extra height and instability they cause.  Its a pain having to move your orthotic from shoe to shoe.  And because your feet get trained to the orthotic, it becomes difficult to walk without them.  I've become very limited in the types of sandles I can wear now - birkenstocks, some Nike's, Chacos, etc.  Essentially only things that come with built in arches will provide the support I need. Crocs on the other hand work very well - if you can handle looking goofy.

If you wear women's dress shoes you'll need a second pair - one for dress shoes and one for active shoes (runners).  That would be another $300 or so for me up here.   


I totally gave up on custom orthotics.  I generally wear 7 - 7.5 in regular shoes and 8 or sometimes 8.5 in running shoes.  I had to go up to 9 in running shoes!  And my heels slipped even more (bigger shoe and sitting higher)

I like the New Balance inserts, and the one I have been using worked really well in my old running shoes, but is not working in my newer ones - probably because the shoes fit slightly better, which puts my feet in a slightly different position on the insert.  The inserts have never worked in my casual shoes, even those with removable insoles.  They raise my feet up just enough...

I hate my Birks.  They are only sandals I have with metatarsal support but they are really hard and irritate the bone at the base of my little toe.  And the suede rubs blisters in random places.
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Offline Ice Cream

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2015, 05:22:31 PM »
I totally gave up on custom orthotics.  I generally wear 7 - 7.5 in regular shoes and 8 or sometimes 8.5 in running shoes.  I had to go up to 9 in running shoes!  And my heels slipped even more (bigger shoe and sitting higher)

I like the New Balance inserts, and the one I have been using worked really well in my old running shoes, but is not working in my newer ones - probably because the shoes fit slightly better, which puts my feet in a slightly different position on the insert.  The inserts have never worked in my casual shoes, even those with removable insoles.  They raise my feet up just enough...

I hate my Birks.  They are only sandals I have with metatarsal support but they are really hard and irritate the bone at the base of my little toe.  And the suede rubs blisters in random places.

Dansko clogs?

Offline rocketgirl

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2015, 05:46:59 PM »
Dansko clogs?

I can't really wear clogs.  Too much motion rubs a fallen arch.  Plus added tension of keeping them on.

Hell, I wear heels to work (but I sit all day).  My slip ons are usually fine for errands and some tourism if I am not constantly moving.  They have a little arch, just no metatarsal support.  And everything has straps to keep my shoes on my feet!

I just can't be making things worse in my running shoes.
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Offline makeda

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2015, 06:06:09 PM »
I have orthotics, but I don't wear them. I wear my Keens instead, and fortunately, that works for me.
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Offline HobbyJogger

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2015, 06:25:15 PM »
The people who seem to benefit the most from bare foot running are the ones who do small amounts a couple times a week. Like a mile or two, then the rest of the time wear shoes. I had orthotics but prefer the Sole Heat Moldable insoles, work better than orthotics, imo. I am also a maximus shoe lover.

That sounds very slightly dirty. But it would make a great username here if anyone is in need.  :)
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Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2015, 08:21:08 PM »
My feet are wimps.  I'm a princess and the pea with even a small pebble in my shoe.   My gait is pretty neutral, but I think my arches are slowly collasping. 

Yeah, barefoot running definately ain't for everyone.
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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2015, 09:10:48 PM »
I run barefoot sometimes on the beach. I have run in light racing shoes since I wore them by mistake on a 20 mile run in 1994 and a subsequent fast marathon and I am paying for it now. Should have stuck with the old Saucony Jazz. (12 oz)

Offline TK

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2015, 09:22:35 AM »
I'm a big boy, I did the barefoot running thing for a whole summer wearing 5-fingers and loved it.  I never got hurt and to this day it changed my stride from being a heel striker to landing on my forefoot.  My issue wasn't one of injury, in fact this was the only way that I never got hurt, instead my calves could not keep up  with me and would cramp up.  My feet got much stronger, and my arch increased with that strength.  I also spent a lot of time walking around in the 5 fingers and really preferred them to shoes.

That said, I run in Gel Kyanos these days.  I would suggest just adding some very light running barefoot at first, half mile nice and easy once a week to start to strengthen those muscles before you do too much barefoot.

Also, I would never trust a chiro to diagnose anything.   

Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2015, 11:21:24 AM »
I'm a big boy, I did the barefoot running thing for a whole summer wearing 5-fingers and loved it.  I never got hurt and to this day it changed my stride from being a heel striker to landing on my forefoot.  My issue wasn't one of injury, in fact this was the only way that I never got hurt, instead my calves could not keep up  with me and would cramp up.  My feet got much stronger, and my arch increased with that strength.  I also spent a lot of time walking around in the 5 fingers and really preferred them to shoes.

That said, I run in Gel Kyanos these days.  I would suggest just adding some very light running barefoot at first, half mile nice and easy once a week to start to strengthen those muscles before you do too much barefoot.

Also, I would never trust a chiro to diagnose anything.   

Fascinating. 
I've had luck w/Kayanos and GT 3200.  Thanx so much for your input. 

About how long did it take you to notice increase strength and arch after wearing the 5 fingers? 
I don't think I'd go 5 finger b/c I don't like that in between the toe feeling but I'm thinking maybe New Balance minimus.  It all depends on what the podiatrist says on Tuesday.
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline Richard21142

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2015, 11:34:29 AM »
Back in first grade, I flunked my school physical due to pancake flat feet and a note was sent home to my parents.  Running track in high school and college and landing on my forefoot, actually developed the muscles in my arch and I no longer have flat feet.

I love running barefoot, but only do it on grass when doing striders.


Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2015, 01:09:24 PM »
Back in first grade, I flunked my school physical due to pancake flat feet and a note was sent home to my parents.  Running track in high school and college and landing on my forefoot, actually developed the muscles in my arch and I no longer have flat feet.

I love running barefoot, but only do it on grass when doing striders.



This is very cool.  So, I don't have to pay damn near $200 for orthotics? 
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

Offline TK

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2015, 02:13:17 PM »
Fascinating. 
I've had luck w/Kayanos and GT 3200.  Thanx so much for your input. 

About how long did it take you to notice increase strength and arch after wearing the 5 fingers? 
I don't think I'd go 5 finger b/c I don't like that in between the toe feeling but I'm thinking maybe New Balance minimus.  It all depends on what the podiatrist says on Tuesday.

It was like building up any muscle, slow and steady.  Even though I was running 3 miles 3 times a week at the time I worked in the barefoot running like I was starting from scratch.  Must have taken a month to really notice the difference, but when I noticed the difference was huge.

I tried the minimus and HATED them, didn't fit right and felt like crappy shoes.  I would suggest trying out the 5 fingers, after you have them on a few minutes you stop noticing them between your toes.  But the real reason I recommend them if you are interested in strengthening your foot is I don't think you will get the same strength gains from the minimus.  With the 5 fingers your toes kind of spread out and "grab" the earth (like your hands do if you where crawling in the sand) and this is what really strengthened my feet.  (I think) You don't get that in a minimalist shoe.   

Offline Virginia Plain

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Re: flat feet and barefoot running
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2015, 09:18:16 AM »
It was like building up any muscle, slow and steady.  Even though I was running 3 miles 3 times a week at the time I worked in the barefoot running like I was starting from scratch.  Must have taken a month to really notice the difference, but when I noticed the difference was huge.

I tried the minimus and HATED them, didn't fit right and felt like crappy shoes.  I would suggest trying out the 5 fingers, after you have them on a few minutes you stop noticing them between your toes.  But the real reason I recommend them if you are interested in strengthening your foot is I don't think you will get the same strength gains from the minimus.  With the 5 fingers your toes kind of spread out and "grab" the earth (like your hands do if you where crawling in the sand) and this is what really strengthened my feet.  (I think) You don't get that in a minimalist shoe.   

Good to know.  Thanx
Then, it's just the ol' squat, catch and pitch...--Makeda

 

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