CH Runners
Not Running => Food => Topic started by: CheryG on February 01, 2019, 06:49:37 PM
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Who does it?
What do you bake?
How did you get your starter?
Does it have a name?
I started a wild yeast starter on Dec 31st. I LOVE it, and have been making some simple sandwich loaves with it. So sour, so good!
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Over the years I've purchased starters from King Arthur flour but it doesn't have the tang of a traditional SF sourdough..so I no longer have a dedicated sourdough starter. Is yours tangy?
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i got my starter from my mother. she used wild yeast for hers.
i bake bread once a week.
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Mine is tangy, depending on my method of course. Right now I've been doing a basic recipe of
Saturday- feed starter in the afternoon, bring to room temp.
Sunday- 1C starter, 1 1/4C water, 4C bread flour, 2C white wheat, 2t salt, 2T oil.
Slow rise all day as our kitchen is cool.
We use it for sandwich bread toasting.
It's name is Atine.
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There is a FB group called Perfect Sourdough that gives me shame, so many amazing bakers!
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10214109574922488&id=1506235813
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I am baking *real* bread for the first time ever today. I try to eat low carb, so I've resisted in the past, but with two kids and DH, I can justify a baking habit! Wish me luck.... Starting with a good jewish rye, which is hard to find here, but I can see sourdough in our future...
Do you do it all by hand, or do you use a bread machine at all?
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i don't use a bread machine.
i do use a stand mixer to knead dough.
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i don't use a bread machine.
i do use a stand mixer to knead dough.
That’s how I plan to do the batch today, but would love to be able to convert to a bread machine and get a successful outcome. I can see it being easier to do on a regular basis if I can premix some of the dry ingredients.
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I prefer to make bread by hand. I use the stand mixer for really wet doughs but it's not my fave.
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That’s how I plan to do the batch today, but would love to be able to convert to a bread machine and get a successful outcome. I can see it being easier to do on a regular basis if I can premix some of the dry ingredients.
So, this is one of those indulgent things I do because I work from home and I can. T has very fond memories of eating rolls in germany as a kid. And it's really hard to find decent rolls because they are super perishable.
So, I've been making this recipe because it can sit in my fridge all week and I cook off one or two rolls a day. Works out great & is very easy. The dough takes about 2 minutes to throw together and then it sits on the counter for 2 hours and then in the fridge for up to 1 week. It comes out of the fridge, proofs for 1 hour, and the bakes for 25 minutes. Timing the bake is usually the "hard" part for me.
https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2016/12/07/no-knead-sandwich-rolls/
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That looks like a great recipe RA.
I have a very sturdy stand mixer for bread so I use that. I've been seeing a slack dough kneading methods that I'd like to try- it's more a stretch and folding of the dough than a knead.
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Described at 3:00
https://youtu.be/yg5nLQVg4VY
I've seen it done with dough that's even more slack than that.
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that's a fantastic video :heartbeat:
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I have these doing their final slow-rise in the fridge right now. If they work out, I might experiment with freezing them at the final rise stage next time so I don't have to bake them all at once.
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/crusty-european-style-hard-rolls-recipe (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/crusty-european-style-hard-rolls-recipe)
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So, this is one of those indulgent things I do because I work from home and I can. T has very fond memories of eating rolls in germany as a kid. And it's really hard to find decent rolls because they are super perishable.
So, I've been making this recipe because it can sit in my fridge all week and I cook off one or two rolls a day. Works out great & is very easy. The dough takes about 2 minutes to throw together and then it sits on the counter for 2 hours and then in the fridge for up to 1 week. It comes out of the fridge, proofs for 1 hour, and the bakes for 25 minutes. Timing the bake is usually the "hard" part for me.
https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2016/12/07/no-knead-sandwich-rolls/
Oh, if my experiment today is successful I’m definitely trying that! DH gets tired of plain sandwiches, which leads to a $20 lunch out. He brings home bakery rolls to mix things up but they usually go stale within a day. This looks like a great alternative.
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Oh, if my experiment today is successful I’m definitely trying that! DH gets tired of plain sandwiches, which leads to a $20 lunch out. He brings home bakery rolls to mix things up but they usually go stale within a day. This looks like a great alternative.
Seriously-- I am the opposite of a baker. Baked things fail in my hands. But that recipe is fool proof. And, I don't do it for the price savings, but artisan rolls are like $1-2 each and each batch is maybe .25$. They definitely turn out best if you bake them in a pre-heated pan (a dutch oven if you have one) but I have baked them on a sheet pan too and they taste just fine but the outside isn't quite as pretty.
Today's experimental brotchen, by contrast, tasted really good but they were a pain in the ass and they were much softer. Just not what we prefer.
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Seriously-- I am the opposite of a baker. Baked things fail in my hands. But that recipe is fool proof. And, I don't do it for the price savings, but artisan rolls are like $1-2 each and each batch is maybe .25$. They definitely turn out best if you bake them in a pre-heated pan (a dutch oven if you have one) but I have baked them on a sheet pan too and they taste just fine but the outside isn't quite as pretty.
Today's experimental brotchen, by contrast, tasted really good but they were a pain in the ass and they were much softer. Just not what we prefer.
That's awesome. Definitely going to try it.
My rye bread is going to come out a little funky I think. It was supposed to take 60-90min on the second rise and at 30min it's huge. Not sure if I should just stop and bake it, or let it rise more.
ETA, oof, I think this first batch is going to be pretty bad. The recipe just gave general guidance on time and said to put it in a warm place. I think I overdid the warm place and it rose too fast and then fell while cooking. Next time...
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Oh bummer, picote!
My unsolicted advice for a new bread baker is to internationally wreck a few batches. Bread is made more by feel than anything else.
One batch should be overdeveloped in the kneading stage, for the baker to observe gluten development and then ruination. In a stand mixer, watch the dough go from a total mess, then become cohesive, then it will develop almost a sheen and start to climb the dough hook, and then like a snapping rubber band the gluten will start to "break" as the dough becomes overdeveloped.
One batch (as you just did) needs to overproofed to learn the feel of when it needs to go in the oven. Dough has no tme schedule- it needs to go in when it feels... like a firm boob. So feel up the dough throughout a rise cycle to get that feel of when it isn't ready yet to when it's too late.
Also, bread making is more accurate when the ingredients are weighed, but mostly the ratio of water to flour is by eye. Once you have an idea as to how stiff the dough needs to be you'll better be able to adjust the recipe to suit the weather that day.
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Hmmm, if it climbed the dough hook is it already overdeveloped? It had just started to climb the hook when I stopped mixing.
I did both of the rises in the oven at 90 degrees, which was clearly too fast. If over proofed does it feel super fluffy?
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The sheen stage is perfect development, a short while after the climb.
Over proofed feels fluffy and the dough will indent.
You can control the rise by using different yeasts and adjusting the temperature of your liquid as well as the proofing temperature. It all depends on the type of bread you want to make. When I'm making a honey oatmeal sandwich bread I go for a fast rise- super warm water, warm proofing area. But a pizza dough that I'm going to either greeze or long retard, ice cold water (even ice on a cold day). The kneading itself produces friction and warms the dough a little.
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The sheen stage is perfect development, a short while after the climb.
Over proofed feels fluffy and the dough will indent.
You can control the rise by using different yeasts and adjusting the temperature of your liquid as well as the proofing temperature. It all depends on the type of bread you want to make. When I'm making a honey oatmeal sandwich bread I go for a fast rise- super warm water, warm proofing area. But a pizza dough that I'm going to either greeze or long retard, ice cold water (even ice on a cold day). The kneading itself produces friction and warms the dough a little.
That’s great to hear. I think the mixing was perfect. It had a nice sheen to it. But it way over proofed. The first rise said a ‘warm spot in the kitchen’ so I put it in the oven which was 87 degrees for most of the rise. The second rise didn’t specify so I put it back in the oven and it was seriously poofy at 30 min. I think next time I need to just find a corner a little above room temp and see how that goes...
This was the recipe I used.
https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/230396/real-ny-jewish-rye-bread/ (https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/230396/real-ny-jewish-rye-bread/)
In spite of the over proofing, it still turned out not horrible! Definitely edible, just not there yet.
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Just as a PSA, if your dough overproofs you can reform it and let it proof again likely without too much of a problem, unless you used bread-machine yeast (which is designed to have one, really fast, rise)
My dad turned me on to the King Arthur Flour recipes a few years ago and they are really tried & true and seem to work very well for me. They also have baker hotline you can call and I like that their recipes can be made either by volume (if you must) or by weights & measures. You might give their caraway rye dough a try. https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/caraway-rye-bread-recipe (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/caraway-rye-bread-recipe) They include some interesting comments about the nature of working with rye, that might help too.
I also have made the mistake of going too warm (either water or room temp) to help out my little yeasty friends. I am finding they are more hearty than I give them credit for and am learning to trust that even cold water in a long ferment will go well. I mean, I know this. In the summer sometimes you need to use ice water. But it's still hard to wrap my head around.
The brotchen I made on friday got pretty rave reviews so I'm trying again today. It involves a 12 hour starter, followed by a 3 hour bulk rise (folded every hour), forming into rolls which then get a 2 hour room temp rise, followed by 3 hours in the fridge. So, a bit more work than the typical. But, they did come out really good. My dough seems a bit dryer this time (though I weighed everything to the gram in both cases) and I realized 1 hour into my bulk rise that it was only 65 degrees in the house (oopsie) so here's hoping it works out ok.
ETA update: well the recipe says the first rise won't be much and then it will get stronger each rise, and that is what happened. So, now my rolls are formed and rising on the counter 1-2 hours, then 2-3 hours in the fridge and then into the oven. so far so good.
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Woohoo picote!
I've never found that reforming an overproofed dough works very well, but that could be because my overproofing experiences were a sandwich type bread that was a bit heavy on the honey. It develops an off, not sour taste and has an oily consistency.
I'm making the usual sourdough today, the first rise was 8 hours, the second rise three hours.
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Second attempt came out of the oven today. I didn’t realize I needed to take it out of the loaf pan right away, so the crust got a bit soft, but overall a success. Flavor and texture are great and it looks fantastic. Loaf yesterday just sunk to the point that it was hard to make a sandwich. Now I just need to figure out how best to store it to keep fresh.
And I tried the no knead rolls as well. Thought I’d make a half batch, since it’s mainly DH who will be eating them. Unfortunately, I forgot and added the full salt and yeast, so ended up making a huge batch! Hopefully they turn out ok when we start cooking them! Need to get a good seed mix!
I’m really enjoying the process.
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Picote, nice! Congrats on a successful second bake! I think that your rolls will still work. The extra yeast means it will probably poof up a lot.
my Brotchen yesterday were my best rolls yet. My next experiment will be to freeze them partway through the cold proof so that I don't have to bake off the whole recipe at once and/or babysit dough every other day.
I'd like to try making english muffins next. Maybe next time we have t's dd over.
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Picote, nice! Congrats on a successful second bake! I think that your rolls will still work. The extra yeast means it will probably poof up a lot.
my Brotchen yesterday were my best rolls yet. My next experiment will be to freeze them partway through the cold proof so that I don't have to bake off the whole recipe at once and/or babysit dough every other day.
Ha! I just went with making a full batch, so we're going to be eating a LOT of rolls and bread over the next week... Have you ever tried freezing the dough for these?
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Ha! I just went with making a full batch, so we're going to be eating a LOT of rolls and bread over the next week... Have you ever tried freezing the dough for these?
I haven't. But that is part of the beauty of them-- you make the dough and it can sit in your fridge for a week! So normally I would make a half batch and then bake off 1-4 rolls/day. I have found that after about day 4, they do bake up a little more dense though.
I asked KA if they thought I could use their freeze & bake later method for rolls and they were concerned that the gluten wouldn't have chance to develop. With the Brotchen, it seems like I could maybe freeze them just before they go into the fridge... at least for a couple of days. it's an interesting recipe because it uses less than 1 tsp of yeast. Amazing that it works, right?
I've definitely considered giving some extras away on but nothing. ;)
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Chery-- I can't remember if I shared this story or not. But, I think I've mentioned that my dad is a baker. So, whenver he comes to dinner he is always bringing something interesting from his own kitchen. Usually it's like local wheat or some weird flour someone gave him to experiment with. But, this last time it was sourdough baked with 400 year old starter from Denmark one of his fans brought him. SO COOL, right???
I would like to start my own starter but it will have to wait until after we get back from our vacation, which starts thursday. I'm also not sure if i'll be able to keep a starter alive given my travel schedule. But, I have also seen people share starter on but nothing, so if all else fails, I will do that (or ask my dad, I guess :D)
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One other question for the more experienced bakers... how much does the actual brand of bread flour matter? DH bought KA bread flour for my first experiments, but the larger bag at costco is so much less expensive. I get that water content may vary, so you may need more or less flour, but is there a discernible quality difference?
ETA, sorry for the sourdough hijack!
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the protein may vary too. i use KA flour for everything.
as re the cheap stuff - is it unbleached/unbromated? i'd probably give it a whirl, if so. but i wouldn't buy it otherwise.
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I read somewhere that KA and gold medal both mill to a specific protein content, which theoretically yields more consistent results (but the weather and the time of year the wheat was milled can also impact your results). So, I just buy the KA. Also, I find their recipes reliable and consistent, and they test them using their flours (which again, are milled to spec). I'm not really an experienced baker though. I need to follow a recipe/percentages but a more experienced baker could probably make anything work and adjust on the fly. I need all the help I can get! :roll: OTOH, people have been making bread without percentages and with "whatever" flour for a long time, so I think we also tend to overthink all of it!
But, also, it was SO cool to be in pompeii this fall and wander into the bakeries. You know? Like we've been baking the same wheat into the same bread for a very long time.
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the protein may vary too. i use KA flour for everything.
as re the cheap stuff - is it unbleached/unbromated? i'd probably give it a whirl, if so. but i wouldn't buy it otherwise.
Interesting. I think it's bleached. Pretty sure this was the stuff I saw there this weekend:
https://www.costcobusinessdelivery.com/Ardent-Mills-Bread-Flour%2c-25-lbs.product.10182367.html (https://www.costcobusinessdelivery.com/Ardent-Mills-Bread-Flour%2c-25-lbs.product.10182367.html)
If it doesn't work well, it's a LOT of flour!
ETA, it looks like they sell KA unbleached flour, but not specifically bread flour
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i don't use "bread" flour.
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I use the AP flour and it's been fine for me. Their AP flour is on the higher protein side anyway.
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I adore KA for many reasons, I think the company is great. So that's what I use at home. The flour is quality and consistent. Around here it's kind of a status thing, if anyone asks you had better have a darn good reason for not using it, lol. I live a little over an hour from their store.
All purpose flour is just fine.
That said, lol.... I am anal and I do have bread flour for bread, AP flour for average stuff/old recipes and cake flour for finer cakes and springerle cookies. An old fashioned Whacky Cake gets AP flour, because that's what people expect and honestly I think the ingredients would crush a lighter flour.
I'm about to get some high gluten flour for pizza dough, because I toss my dough and I do think it makes a difference.
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I also use their white whole wheat instead of regular whole wheat. Sometimes whole wheat is just too... wheat and IMO the white whole wheat adds flavor without that cardboard taste.
https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2016/07/21/substitute-bread-flour-all-purpose-flour/
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Hmmm, now that I know costco has KA flour, I may just try a small bag of the all purpose and see how it works. If all goes well, I can buy the large bag. Have the sandwich rolls RA posted coming out of the oven in a few minutes. They look amazing.
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I almost bought KA bread flour yesterday because of this thread. But, it was $12/5lbs vs $6/5lb like I normally pay. We ended up eating all 8 rolls I made in the last batch and I made a batch of these to go with soup last night. I need to stop. We can't eat this much bread!
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-wrap-bread-recipe (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-wrap-bread-recipe)
Picote-- how did those rolls turn out?
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Oh, this thread is a fun find!
We have a local mill that's been in operation for something like 200 years. I buy 20lb bags of their flour :D
I'm going to have to google sourdough starters. I had one once but it was refrigerated.
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You guys are making me want to get back into making bread!
All the KA talk is making me think it’s time for another pilgrimage to Vermont... even though I dropped a ridiculous amount of dough (heh) there last time I went!
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Ha! I would too. I'd love to visit KA and run a long run with CheryG.
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Here was my effort last night for rolls. Some sprung nicely and others not so much.They spread out a lot during the final rise so I suspect that being so close to eachother was part of the issue. My dad said maybe I didn't mix enough, or that they didn't rise long enough before they went in the fridge.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51949016_10157516686694119_6910687363781885952_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=d33ae41bbdebc7f27cade95aadc6ed94&oe=5CDD57E2)
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I almost bought KA bread flour yesterday because of this thread. But, it was $12/5lbs vs $6/5lb like I normally pay. We ended up eating all 8 rolls I made in the last batch and I made a batch of these to go with soup last night. I need to stop. We can't eat this much bread!
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-wrap-bread-recipe (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/soft-wrap-bread-recipe)
Picote-- how did those rolls turn out?
Rolls were amazing. I'm thinking we may just make up a batch of these at the start of the week. ETA that I just put two in the oven for lunch now! :)
My second loaf of rye turned out great, but quality went downhill fast. Going to try again and try to be better about how we care for it. Definitely speaks to the preservatives in bread!
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Here was my effort last night for rolls. Some sprung nicely and others not so much.They spread out a lot during the final rise so I suspect that being so close to eachother was part of the issue. My dad said maybe I didn't mix enough, or that they didn't rise long enough before they went in the fridge.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51949016_10157516686694119_6910687363781885952_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=d33ae41bbdebc7f27cade95aadc6ed94&oe=5CDD57E2)
Those are beautiful! I need to get some seed mixes :)
Is this the recipe you posted or is the the complicated one?
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you know how you have to sometimes discard starter when you feed it? this is a fantastic recipe to use that discard instead of throwing it out:
http://bintrhodaskitchen.blogspot.com/2013/04/zait-and-zaatar-sourdough-crackers.html (http://bintrhodaskitchen.blogspot.com/2013/04/zait-and-zaatar-sourdough-crackers.html)
I substitute all sorts of varying things for the zaatar.
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They look amazing RA!
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Those are the complicated ones. You brush them with egg (or in that case I used buttermilk) because the long ferment uses up all the sugar that would normally brown. I just used TJ's everything bagel seasoning. :!:
Picote- -if you want your soft bread to last longer you could try converting it to a scalded style recipe. Which I just find so fascinating.
http://theryebaker.com/on-scalds-and-scalding/ (http://theryebaker.com/on-scalds-and-scalding/)
https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2018/07/23/how-to-convert-a-bread-recipe-to-tangzhong/ (https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2018/07/23/how-to-convert-a-bread-recipe-to-tangzhong/)
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scalds. oh, all i can think of is anadama bread. so delicious.
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Ha! I would too. I'd love to visit KA and run a long run with CheryG.
Come run the VT50k!!!
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Here was my effort last night for rolls. Some sprung nicely and others not so much.They spread out a lot during the final rise so I suspect that being so close to eachother was part of the issue. My dad said maybe I didn't mix enough, or that they didn't rise long enough before they went in the fridge.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51949016_10157516686694119_6910687363781885952_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=d33ae41bbdebc7f27cade95aadc6ed94&oe=5CDD57E2)
Gorgeous!!!
I made waffles this morning with the discard and am about to put a boule in the oven. Last week's boule was tasty an OK, but I want more of that extravagant oven spring- I had the dough less hydrated than I would for a boule and it was a little underproofed. Hoping for better results with this one. I meed a banneton.
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Grrr. Nope, perfection not to be had. My house is so dry! Just within the last proof, most of that in the oven with a steamy mug of water, it absolutely crusted to the point of cracking when I slit it before baking. Ooops!
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Do you find your sourdough last longer? I am excited to try it just for the prospect the rolls lasting more than 1 day!
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Come run the VT50k!!!
Are you running it this year?
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Do you find your sourdough last longer? I am excited to try it just for the prospect the rolls lasting more than 1 day!
Definitely. I always consider a flour/salt/water recipe an eat that day bread, and the starter changes that. The shelf life is more of a bread that has fat added.
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Are you running it this year?
I haven't decided yet. I'm definitely shooting for the Stonecat 50k, and am considering the VT50k, or any other trail marathon around that time frame of late Sept early to mid October.
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I haven't decided yet. I'm definitely shooting for the Stonecat 50k, and am considering the VT50k, or any other trail marathon around that time frame of late Sept early to mid October.
Stone Cat is marathon distance or 50M. No 50K. I am planning on the marathon this year.
Have you looked at Pisgah it's in Sept - 23K or 50K. I run the 23K.
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Stone Cat is marathon distance or 50M. No 50K. I am planning on the marathon this year.
Have you looked at Pisgah it's in Sept - 23K or 50K. I run the 23K.
They are changing stone cat for 2019 to a single 50k race. Will you do it too? I will check out Pisgah....
I used a mixing bowl as a cloche today and it knocked the whole steam portion of the bake out of the park. I also kept the dough moist before baking. Love the result, yay!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/20190220_161552_zpsjh0bfw4r.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CheryG/media/20190220_161552_zpsjh0bfw4r.jpg.html)
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That's gorgeous Chery! Will have to keep the races in mind for the fall :)
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Hey, I just came in here to start a sourdough thread!
Can you guys recommend a good starter recipe? I just want to make plain sourdough for sandwiches. No stand mixer, and I’ll be kneading by hand.
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I basically used the King Arthur method, but to be honest I didn't really measure anything, I just eyeballed it.
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-starter-recipe (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-starter-recipe)
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Awesome, thanks. I need to get some rye or whole wheat flour tomorrow.
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I've now switched mine from being an all purpose flour starter to one that is half AP and half rye. O
It just seems to be more predictable and more robust when it's half rye.
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They are changing stone cat for 2019 to a single 50k race. Will you do it too? I will check out Pisgah....
Whoa, I had no idea. I would do the 50k. Will see what I can find out.
and the bread all looks fabulous ladies, just outside my skills...
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Whoa, I had no idea. I would do the 50k. Will see what I can find out.
and the bread all looks fabulous ladies, just outside my skills...
That no knead sandwich roll recipe RA posted is super easy... We managed to use the entire batch! Prepping a second batch either today or tomorrow.
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https://modernistcuisine.com/2018/11/dough-cpr/
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Just popping in to say how much we like the RA sandwich rolls! I'm trying to cut carbs, so only making them for DH, but they're so easy and so much better than what he'd buy at the store. It's a nice break from work to run in and prep it and he loves them.
I haven't made the rye bread again, mainly because it's a fair bit of time for a loaf that doesn't seem to last very long. I bought a second hand bread maker, so may experiment and see if I can figure out how to use the bread machine and if that makes things easier.
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Yay! I'm glad, Picote!
I had read that you can do the second rise on the no-knead style bread in a cold pan while the oven pre-heats (so bread in a cold pan in a cold oven). So, I tried that today and the results were "meh". The rolls rose a bit but came out pretty flat. We'll see what they are like when we eat them later. I did try brushing them with milk before baking and they came out beautifully golden & shiny, though!
I am hoping to procure a little whole wheat flour to try getting a starter going maybe later today.
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My sourdough starter spilled in the fridge. :( I need to find a better container for it and then start another one.
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Mmm, yeah, I don't like the cold oven start either. I've been doing second rise on parchment so I can slide it into either the dutch oven or onto the stone.
Oh no Natasha! I hope it cleans up OK.
I use this because it's not tippy...
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ball-Extra-Wide-Half-Gallon-Decorative-Mason-Jar-with-Metal-Lid-Clear-64-Ounces/153364855
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I really need to buy a crockpot for my baking. I also need to replace my long broken baking stone. Or maybe a steel. Any preferences between stone & steel?
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I haven't baked on steel but I hear it is all the rage.
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it depends on your desired outcome. i typically prefer the steel - it's faster, more complete baking, with better spring.
i use the stone when i'm making something which needs a "wetter" bake - like italian bread. 'though i suspect i could steam just as well using the steel (i'd just have to pay more attention).
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I have such a tiny kitchen. I don't know if I can really justify either one! Let alone both! I did read that the stone & steel together make a great combo for pizzas because the steel will stay hot between pies.
Continuing my experimentation... I made a batch of the Brotchen posted upthread. The problem with that recipe is that it takes 2 days and it's kind of finicky (knead every hour, then form, then chill for 3 hours, then bake). Apparently it does not hold well. It needs to bake after 3 hours in the fridge-- and 8 rolls is too many and it's too finicky to make every other day! After reading KA's blog post about freezing rolls, I decided to try it. So, after I formed them I stuck them in the freezer. Yesterday, I got an ok-- but not great result. Today, I set my oven to proof & kind of forgot about it. Still not AS great as baking per the recipe but much better than yesterday.
Still need to get my starter rollin'
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Lol, total fcuking fail last night with the sourdough. Tried a recpe with an autolyse, didn't trust the ratios given, it looked too dry. So I added water... yeah... no.
Rescue bake today, as I need it for dinner tonight. Fingers crossed!
It was a weird night for bread, I also made a honey graham oat bread and it proofed, both rises, in like 30 minutes. Odd. And I know I had the yeast right. Luckily, unlike my sourdough, it tastes great.
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Recipe for the graham bread- it's really good. And proofs fast, sometimes, lol! (Was fine the first time...)
https://www.breadexperience.com/honey-graham-oatmeal-bread-in-mountains/
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I finally started my sourdough starter. Yesterday it had like 1 bubble. This morning it has like tripled in size. Do I let it go for 24 hours or feed it early?
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more unfed starter recipes: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/collections/sourdough-discard-recipes/
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Thanks, I just started a new starter so that’s handy. I want to try the raisin bread. Maybe the popovers as well.
I used the pizza one last time and liked it. The pancakes were just ok.
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Natasha-- how is your starter doing?
I am on "day 4" with mine. Yesterday it was so vigorous and seemed right on track to go to 12 hour feedings. But, it has been kinda "meh" ever since. It's bubbly but not doubling in size. The KA article seems to suggest keeping the faith & just keep feeding it. I started it with 100% ww and then switched to AP like they said. Yesterday I did 1/2 ww/ap for my 2nd feeding and put it in the oven with the light on to give it a little boost and still... meh. A little bubbly and it smells like sourdough but not super active. I leave on a trip on Sunday and I KNOW my husband will not feed it while I'm away-- so I really need to get it to refrigeration stage.
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Natasha-- how is your starter doing?
I am on "day 4" with mine. Yesterday it was so vigorous and seemed right on track to go to 12 hour feedings. But, it has been kinda "meh" ever since. It's bubbly but not doubling in size. The KA article seems to suggest keeping the faith & just keep feeding it. I started it with 100% ww and then switched to AP like they said. Yesterday I did 1/2 ww/ap for my 2nd feeding and put it in the oven with the light on to give it a little boost and still... meh. A little bubbly and it smells like sourdough but not super active. I leave on a trip on Sunday and I KNOW my husband will not feed it while I'm away-- so I really need to get it to refrigeration stage.
I just started it yesterday using rye flour. It was really dense and I wasn’t expecting much but it has at least tripled in size and smells like beer.
I’m sure your starter is still active. Maybe it’s running out of food?
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It got a little perkier this afternoon. So, I guess there is hope yet. I am feeding it every 12 hours at this point so def not running out of food.
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My starter seems way too perky for only being fed once. It's quintupled!
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Sorry Ive missed this!
Starters go through a period of a slump around day 4. Just keep feeding! :)
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My starter seems way too perky for only being fed once. It's quintupled!
Excellent!
It took mine a long time to start doubling.
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The method I've settled on at the moment is to use a sponge.
I take out 1c starter, feed it, let it sit for 8 hours. Then I add more flour, etc. Then it has a fairly fast rise, tons of oven spring, and enough flavor to still be sour. Otherwise I was finding too much unpredictability, even though I tried to time it all well.
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I'm looking forward to actually baking with my starter!
My dad stopped by the house on Saturday evening. I had planned to just stick my starter in the fridge and hope for the best while I was away this week.
My dad poked around at it and said, "yeah... it's just young"... and "I'm over AP flour-- you should feed it WW or Rye". I told him I was going to put it in the fridge even though I didn't think it was ready and he was like NO it'll die! And I was like, we'll i'm leaving! so I will have to take that chance! And then my sweet (no cooking at all) husband chimed in that he would feed my starter for me. So, we named the starter Donovan, after his favorite basketball player and so far he's remembered 2 feedings and forgotten one. So, we will see how it goes this week. :D
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My sourdough is bubbly every day but it doesn't seem to ever expand. More time maybe.
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How wet is it? If it's on the wet side and the bubbles are escaping instead of lifting... no rise.
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Oh and Hiiiiiiiiii Donovan! Welcome to the world!
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It's pretty wet. After 12 hours, it's very much like pancake batter. I decided to feed it rye today. We'll see what happens.
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Fingers crossed!
This is the recipe/ratios I tried today, and I'm really happy with the bake, except for that oil step, lol.
http://www.dvo.com/newsletter/weekly/2014/06-13-123/cooknart1.html
My sponge only rose 50% before it fell, but the proofing and oven spring were great. I put enough flour in that it was a fairly stiff dough.
I just can't seem to get the hang of retarding and methods that use autolyse. The sponge I can put on my schedule more- it's predictable.
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I predict that sourdough will be the next diet fad.
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I predict that sourdough will be the next diet fad.
you might have missed that one... it's a big part of the pro-fermenting gut flora for life health stuff :)
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I don't know how you sourdough bakers are eating what you produce without creating the NEED for another diet fad. Those crusty loaves sure look good, though.
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I’ve met two sourdough bakers who are gluten/-free or have family members who don’t eat gluten.
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you might have missed that one... it's a big part of the pro-fermenting gut flora for life health stuff :)
It just hasn't gone mainstream. When it hits MLM it will have arrived, lol.
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I made the cinnamon raisin bread from the KA website with my discard and it was a big success. But my first attempt at actual bread was a big failure. I didn’t add enough flour for sure, but I don’t think the starter is strong enough to work without the help of yeast.
I need more experience making regular old bread, so I know how a sponge should behave, a good rise, etc.
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Natasha-- will you try again? I think my starter is ready to start baking with but we leave on Wednesday and it seems like it takes a couple of days to feed and then make the dough before you get a loaf? So... I think I will refrigerate my starter and try when we get back.
I tried making the waffle recipe with my discard and T loved it. M did not love it.
Yesterday I made the crackers with discard and those were SO good.
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Natasha, there's no harm in spiking it with yeast, or using a high ratio of starter....
I have two sponges starting this morning, gonna play with some stencils on these. Nothing fancy for the bread, just a basic boule, one third whole wheat.
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I’m still playing with the starter. It’s fun and I like the taste. But I don’t fully understand how to use it yet. Like, when to use fed, unfed, discard etc. How sticky the dough should be.
I made the buttery sourdough buns from the KA website and they came out well. Too soft and white-bread for my personal taste but a definite success.
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Chery, how do you make a sponge with the starter?
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So, I ended up using my starter discard to make make the "no knead" rolls and it was a great addition. They have a great flavor to them, even though they are raised with regular yeast. Kind of a cheater sourdough. Still only making them one day at at a time and the whole point was to make something that would last a couple of days.
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Sponge:
1C starter, unfed
1C water
1C flour(s)
I let it sit for 6 hours, warm room temp.
Then I add 2.5C flour(s), 2t salt and a splash of something sweet. Sugar, honey or whatever... A little oil if for a more sandwich type bread than a crusty bread. More flour if necessary while mixing, but usually not much.
First rise is usually 2 hours, second rise only takes a half hour or so, I like it a little underproofed going in the oven, so it kind of explodes.
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Tons of oven spring, still a fine crumb. This had olive oil.
Edited cause pic was probably huge...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/IMG_20190409_164308_757_zpshelfefjk.jpg
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wow, gorgeous (and yuge!)
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wow, gorgeous (and yuge!)
Is the pic yuge? I can't tell on the phone. I can edit to do a link instead as it looks impossible to resize it.
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It looks amazing on my phone! Book quality. What kind of pan did you use? How did it get so dark? Mine don’t darken much at all.
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I used a cast iron dutch oven. Oven not quite preheated to 450 (not intentional), 25 minutes with the lid on, 10 minutes with the lid off, then I dropped the temp to 350 for another... 10 minutes until it thumped hollow.
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it was pretty big. It's fabulous.
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I’ll try that tomorrow. I’ve been using a convection oven. Maybe that’s why my breads don’t brown.
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Do you double check your oven temps with a thermometer?
There is also a certain kind of pale that goes along with a bread being overproofed, and that's the trouble I was running into before I went with the sponge method. I still haven't figured out where I was going wrong, it was like the dough never rose, but was overproofed at the same time.
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No, i wing it. I’ll try the thermometer tomorrow.
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You make the prettiest bread, CG! You really should open a bakery.
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Thank you RA. The masters on thay sourdough FB page inspire me.
CheryG's CBD Bakeree...
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Thank you RA. The masters on thay sourdough FB page inspire me.
CheryG's CBD Bakeree...
I want to join!
The groups are all I use facebook for nowadays.
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How did autocorrect turn the into thay?? Oh geez.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/perfectsourdough/
Those folks are amazing.
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This dude...
https://www.facebook.com/Josep.Pascual.forner
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Here is my dad's insta--he doesn't post often but sometimes he posts his R & D stuff which is pretty fun. I should, of course, just ask him how to make bread. But, what would the fun of that be?
https://www.instagram.com/bassnmando/
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Following!
RA, I'm sure it thrills him a little when you do ask? I've comw to think of asking someone's advice as being one of the highest compliments one can give.
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Some good discussion here about inoculation and rise and temps....
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/keyword/inoculation
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so much food porn :-*
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I’m checking out the Facebook group now. :heartbeat: Someone recommended an online course on udemy.com. It’s only $10.99, thinking about taking it.
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Yes! The creator of the page has many Udemy courses. I won a pass to two of them and have taken one. She has a hreat voice and does a good job with them. I've yet to try the method she used- it is a low inoculation "extreme" fermentation, so I have zero opinion as to how well I'll use the info presented, but so far I think she did a great job.
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I’m glad to hear it. Today the weather is lousy so I’m going to be playing in the kitchen and on the internet.
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I don't want to really say it because it's probably coincidence, but now that I've switched over to all my bread coming from a starter, my body is feeling pretty wonderful. It's like when I was on the Paleo diet, but even better.
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I tried your sponge, Chery, and it was a success! Kind of. I got a good rise and it browned nicely. Tastes good. The only problem is that it really stuck to the bottom of my pan, even after oiling it. I was using a gas oven and believe I had the pan too close to the flame.
I also signed up for 2 of the udemy classes.
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Yay!!!
I usually use a piece of parchment to transfer the dough into the dutch oven or onto my stone, and leave it there for baking. I've never had a problem with sticking, but I also liberally dust the bottom of the loaves as well. With either regular flour or semolina flour.
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Today, a little bit too much of an explosion...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwLEryJAcd5/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1ccdr2luj1hvz
Also proofing is a test loaf with folds and I'm going to retard it until tomorrow afternoon.
https://youtu.be/D4RE6usC9c0
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Good enough! Finally I get a decent result from a fold and retard method.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwNIVsiAg0S/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=14t6fh3spdmiu
Started it at 3pm or so yesterday, folded every hour until 7pm, shaped it, stuck it in the fridge. Brought it out at 5:30am, proofed it until 7:05am, then baked it.
What a PITA. Is yummy tho.
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Gorgeous!
I've been watching the Make Your Own Sourdough Starter series on youtube, and my starter clearly isn't ready. I thought it was, as it gets bubbly. So it's back on the counter getting twice-a-day feedings. I may sneak in some whole wheat or rye flour tomorrow to get it going faster.
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But I thought you got a great loaf from it?
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But I thought you got a great loaf from it?
Well, I thought it was great but maybe it could be better? My starter isn't doubling, maybe getting a 1.5 rise at best.
Maybe I'll try making another one tomorrow.
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I don't exactly watch mine all the time, but there are days I suspect that mine doesn't double either. But I'm not consistent with it either. If it has hooch, I feed it. When I feed it I add either an equal amount of food to it, or a bit less, never more. Everything else I do varies.
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And dayum that test loaf is tasty, lol. Rethinking my aversion to the PITA. If I start at 5pm and bake the following evening, it would work ok.
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Chery do you keep your starter in the fridge or on the counter?
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Fridge. I let it sit for a while on the counter after feeding, then in the fridge it goes.
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Natasha-- the recipe I'm following for starter (King Arthur-- shock!) mentioned that really the vigor of your starter is the biggest thing. They suggest feeding every 12 hours until you get reliable doubling w/in 6-8 hours of feeding. That took me about 2 weeks and I switched to rye vs AP flour after the first week. I have been feeding my starter w/ rye and then baking with AP flour which gives it a nice mix of flavors & textures. The whole feeding 2x/day thing is kind of expensive & messy so I'm glad to be bast that stage!
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I was using the King Arthur starter recipe as well, and just called it good after 5 days and put it in the fridge. It probably hasn’t stabilized. I’m making a test loaf today so we’ll see.
We’re on the boat in the Bahamas and flour is expensive!! I really don’t want to have to feed it twice a day for another week.
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It's warm there so I am guessing you won't have to! Where in the bahamas? Honestly, dealing with all of this on a boat sounds like kind of a nightmare!!
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We are in the Exumas right now. Making sourdough is really common among boaters. I kept talking to people who said they make sourdough bread so figured I’d try it. It’s fun, and we have lots of time to mess around.
My test loaf turned out ok, not great. A little heavy.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190415/d96ea84e84bf8e5d9c86fe72d5e1170e.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190415/80006af728bd6e5bbfbead42d7fce366.jpg)
I can think of at least three possible reasons it is a little doughy : it’s underproofed; it’s underbaked; or I didn’t do those slashes in the top deep enough.
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Maybe temperature/over proofed? I have you seen this tutorial? https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/troubleshoot-bad-bread-messed-up-loaf.html
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I think it looks more like "The Jumper". I gave it plenty of time to proof but if my starter is indeed weak, it probably needed an even longer proofing period.
I think I'll just focus on increasing the vitality of the starter, taking it out of the fridge and feeding again, with some rye or whole wheat added. Try again in a week.
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My take on underproofed vs underproofed is that underproofed loaves explode when scored- like my loaves tend to do. A "properly proofed" loaf doesn't tend to form an ear- the slash will be flat against the loaf. Overproofed loaves, like the pictorial shows, are flat and gummy.
My guess, and I could be wrong, is that your loaf is overproofed. Sourdough seems to need less of a rise than i would expect before going into the oven. I'm liking having a banneton to use because it gives me a better visual as to how much the loaf has risen vs seeing it on a flat surface.
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So you agree with RA. Hmm. I was going by the bubbles. They are big, although irregular, just under the crust but less developed in the center.
What is the difference between a banneton and a bowl?
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For the purpose of evaluating rise, not much. I've never used a bowl for second rise, I would just let it rise on a cookie sheet, under a piece of saran wrap because my house is so dry. Now I have the banneton, and after I got over my fear that I hadn't conditioned it enough to prevent sticking, I like it.
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I’ll look for a good basket to serve. I’ll also look for razor blades.
You don’t use a scale, right?
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I both do and do not use a scale, it depends on the recipe.
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My first loaf tastes great and has a nice crust and ok texture but it didnt rise much. Fun first go though!
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Well, I pulled my starter out of the fridge & fed it about 3 hours ago and it has maybe quadrupled in size in that time. I was worried my starter wasn't strong enough but I think it's just that I used it after it had peaked. So, I am waiting for it to peak and then I will try again. But, given how vigorous it is today, I have high hopes!
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Whoa! That’s impressive. I’ve been tracking mine for the last couple of days and it barely doubles in eight hours.
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Whoa! That’s impressive. I’ve been tracking mine for the last couple of days and it barely doubles in eight hours.
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Well, I started another batch which includes a 30 minute autolyse and THEN I read that you should not autolyse with rye because something about rye. So-- I might have already screwed up batch 2 also. We'll see.
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Nooo, I don't think you screwed it up. How did it turn out?
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Not great. Ok. But nothing to write home about.
I have another loaf proofing right now. I am struggling with the loaf formation. And, I guess I need a baton. I think after this next loaf of failed sadness I may take a little break. The struggle is real.
Donovan seems happy as ever though.
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Mistakes that teach... I tried to adapt the sponge recipe to one I would retard. As far as ratios of fat/liquid/carbs these are almost identical, but one I used very warm liquid in the sponge, the other cold. The warm one started rising sooner, of course, and both were put in the fridge at the same time. The warm one didn't stop during the night, I pulled the slower one out at 4am to try to speed it up. Result? One slightly underproofed, the other totally overproofed. The overproofed one even rose/baked more quickly. Still tastes OK, but it ain't pretty!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/20190420_073747_zpstoxbpih9.jpg
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And :( RA. Yes, the struggle is real.
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Ok, that lowf was fugly but it worked. I started down this road thinking I could make sandwich rolls that would last more than a day. I feel like I'm a ways from that still.
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I don't think you're that far off.
Your starter is working.
Try the sponge recipe, don't use more than 1/3 whole grain flour, shape into rolls and see how it goes?
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http://anirama.com/100loaves/loaf-39-testing-a-proof-qed/
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Trying again. 5 hours of stretch & fold ahead of me. Wish me luck!
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How did it turn out?
I tried again too. I accidentally set my oven to “combination (microwave)” instead of “convection”, and I had metal in it so there was some arcing and electric fire smell about 25 minutes into the bake. I hope I didn’t kill my oven.
The bread is my best one so far though. And I have a good setup for baking: a pizza pan with a heavy pot upside down as a lid.
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The taste & crust were great!! Did not rise as much as I wanted. But still a good loaf! I mean, I wouldn't serve it to guests unless it was sliced. Dough handling and loaf shaping went better.
Next I may try the food 52 method.
Also, I keep only 20 grams of starter and just feed it up vs discard and that's been great!
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Whoohoooooo!
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Donovan always doubles and seems pretty active. But today's feeding is the first time I've seen it really look alive with bubbles actively breaking the surface as I watch. Pretty cool!
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I did my usual sponge method with a Tuscan Herb infused olive oil and it was fabulous but a wee bit overproofed.
Started this one last night, will see how it goes.
https://www.manmadediy.com/no-knead-bread-dutch-oven
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I'm interested to see if that one you just posted will work out. It seems like it is almost 100% hydration dough??? Did I do the math wrong? (it's like 15 oz flour and 14 oz water?)
Also, Yeah, I think I am going to try your method next, Chery. I went back & read where you were struggling with autolyse & low % starter recipes. The one I have going right now I started the levain last night with 10 grams of starter, 25 grams each of water & whole grain flour. That is such a tiny amount. It's like 1 tsp of stater, 1 tbs flour, & 2 tbs water or something.
The instructions say to let it sit for 12 hours until bubbles break the surface & it smells ripe (check). Then add 300 grams of water & 390 grams of flour. Then bulk ferment for 4 hours. Then shape & proof in the fridge overnight. I'm interested in trying this because the recipe I've tried twice now (once disaster and once ok but not enough rise) did it the opposite. It was a 4 hour bulk ferment + 12 hour in the fridge. Then 4 hours proofing at room temp then 2-4 hours after shaping.
Also, some stuff doesn't make sense to me. Like, why does this recipe call for 60 grams of levain which is: 10 grams of 100% hydration starter, 25 grams each of flour/water-- instead of just 60 grams of fed starter? I guess the levain would the tiniest bit higher hydration?
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...and here is the mystery of bread. I have been doing my stretch & folds every 30 minutes for 4 hours on this loaf and it is coming along. I am not sure if it is because my starter is becoming more mature & active or I am getting better at working the dough or... who knows. But I am amazed had how much rise I'm getting out of this. Not the same kind of rise I'd expect from yeast-- but I'm definitely getting some airpockets and my dough is looking very much like the authors in her video.
If you have 25 minutes, I this is worth watching. I've been re-watching it as each step as I go today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP3TKWlGnA
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It is a mystery, lol!
I don't have an answer to your fed starter vs levain, I've wondered the same thing and even tried to google for it. The hydration can be controlled no matter what one does, so I think it's really a matter of preference and maybe fridge space? I don't know.
That's a great video, but I still get stymied by the need to attend to the bread every 30 minutes or so for four hours. I need something that I don't have to babysit that much and I'm willing to sacrifice an open crumb for it. Starter, hydration and retardation are what make a loaf "sour", correct?
What I need an answer to is this- when I would make the pizza dough (neapolitan) it was a commercial yeast based, long mix, low hydration dough. And yet it bakes up with massive holes, a very open crumb unless weighted down with toppings. How is that possible?
A cool read:
https://thebakingnetwork.com/protecting-gluten-in-a-weak-dough/
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The recipe I posted didn't really work, IMO. Too wet to begin with, I added a little flour to be able to pick it up. I'd shape before going in the fridge if I did it again. It rose OK and was proofed enough, but I think it's impossibe to go from not shaped to bakeable within half an hour. I debated letting it sit a little longer, but the dough looked like it was ready. It was strange. It still had spring and the taste is OK.
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Yes, so retarding the dough increases sour because it encourages acetic acid to form. (I read that somewhere). So, if you want a more sour flavor, I think you have to ferment over a long period of time.
You can get a similar thing going with regular yeast doughs that sit in the fridge for a long time. Like those no-knead rolls I like to make-- by the end of the week, that dough takes on a mild sour flavor. And-- great Q re neopolitan pizza dough. My favorite dough is similar-- long mix-- then it sits in the fridge for 24 hours. It's great dough but kind of a pain. Anyway-- I will ask my dad about the levan vs starter and the pizza dough question. I want him to come over & bake with me anyway.
I don't mind fussing with the dough once an hour (or in this case every 30 minutes) during the week. It gives me a reason to get up from my desk and I can do the stretch & fold while I'm on the phone. It's a no-go on the weekend though. The recipe I have in progress right now is an interesting one time-wise because everything is pretty open ended. Like, you make the levain and let it sit on the counter from 8-12 hours. There is no mention or caution of it going past time-- I think because you use only a tiny bit of starter to water/flour so it won't run out of food, maybe? Then-- yes, you have to attend to it for about 6 straight hours but when you start the fussing and when you bake are kinda up to you (levain + water & flour-- do a 5 minute mix, then a 20 minute rest, then add salt and do another 5-10 minute mix, then rest 30 minutes & stretch & fold every 30 -45 minutes for 2-4 hours, the pre-shape & rest for 10-30 mins, then final shape & in the fridge for 8-24 hours). Otherwise I'm trying to calculate where I am at the end of this complicated recipe & whether I will be able to bake the dough right on time!
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Ug!
I like my recipe, lol!
AM- make sponge, feed starter.
Noonish- add flour, etc to make dough.
2-3 hours later, shape. (Do not go for a ride, there will not be enough time)
1 to 2 hours later, bake.
I think the large amount of starter used gives it a big kick start in the flavor department.
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Yep, I'll definitely be trying that next! It's so heartbreaking when you work on a loaf of bread for like 3 straight days and it is a dud!
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Totally!!!
The last time I made it I did do stretch and folds instead of mixing thoroughly. The crumb was more...lacy? I guess the way I think about it is that you can take the gluten and either layer it or knit it. Mixers knit it- close crumb. Stretch and fold layers it and allows for bigger bubbles. I also read once that the bigger bubbles are also gluten degradation- some of the strands snap under the pressure of CO2 production and instead of small bubbles beside each other it becomes one big bubble...
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I'm not really obsessed with an open crumb. This is sandwich bread. My bigger concern is a nice crust, yummy flavor, & a nice texture of crumb (tender, springy, on the wet side).
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSzQfSDDIL8
Alright, here is the result of all those stretches & folds yesterday.
First time proofing in a basket (I used a bowl w/ a floured towel) & my bread stuck to the towel like a mofo -- which was a major bummer!
When I got it out of the basket it totally pancaked and was almost a runny texture. :yikes:
I don't have a lame so I score w/ a knife. I think I got a little aggressive. My scoring needs some work.
Not sure why it's lopsided. Maybe because one side stuck to the basket more than theother and got too jostled? Maybe because I use a cast iron pan with another pan inverted over it instead of a dutch oven & there was a small gap on one side (not sure that was the case-- just a theory).
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/58749337_291774431741327_2126328150928392192_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=6d5e9c4a3e77f0fac0ad21a5dcc6ca3a&oe=5D6490B4)
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Oh no about the towel RA!!! I overflour everything because I'm so afraid of doing that. It probably did deflate more in some places than others. How does it taste?
I'm doing a rosemary infused olive oil bread today, and did stretch and folds because it got me out of hauling wood every few minutes, lol.
I have to admit that when I have the time I like the zen feel of stretch and folds. It's easier to know where the bread is int he proofing stages, I think. I did coils today rather than fold.
I just mailed some starter to a friend and have been trying to out together a sort of recipe to go with it. I'm trying to keep it as user friendly as possible. She's my guinea pig, lol.
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Post your recipe here when you get to it!
It tasted good. Great crumb. Maybe a little too open for my preferred application actually. Crust ok. Not amazing but ok. I think on my next go-round I will try rolls. I realized that dedicating a whole shelf in my fridge to overnight proofing pre-formed rolls is a no-go so it will have to either be the KA retared bulk ferment type or your quicker method.
I definitely think that my fist couple of failures had a lot to do with not knowing how to deal with the sticky blobby mass of dough. I'm getting better at that.
I'm such a crazy person about buying kitchen tools I keep procrastinating buying bread stuff. But, I think I'm ready. I think I am still leaning toward stones w/ roasting cover vs a dutch oven because rolls are my goal.
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I think the stones and cover are a great idea! I need another banneton..... off to King Arthur I go!
A work in progress- I'm trying to keep it simple without "gatekeeping" language. I want my friend to be able to bake this without knowing hydration, etc. I've played around with this recipe enough to think it's pretty foolproof amd durable.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Rc3uMfMtvssxlUYYzlGDG-uHwoHC7Pvqoy1K8ByVQc/edit?usp=drivesdk
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The recipe I posted didn't really work, IMO. Too wet to begin with, I added a little flour to be able to pick it up. I'd shape before going in the fridge if I did it again. It rose OK and was proofed enough, but I think it's impossibe to go from not shaped to bakeable within half an hour. I debated letting it sit a little longer, but the dough looked like it was ready. It was strange. It still had spring and the taste is OK.
I missed this. So, I feel this way about blogs too: anyone can put a recipe on the internet and proclaim it success. You have a lot of people who don't really know what excellent bread is, or are just fine with decent. I mean, what I made yesterday tasted good & totally works for us-- but that doesn't make it good bread, iykwim! But, also, what works in one kitchen & climate might not work as well in another?
& then in the next breath, I'll say:
I'm excited to try your method though!
Your photo made me realize maybe my starter isn't as vigorous as I thought-- mine never looks like that! But, it's also darker than yours (I usually feed it on rye). I am bulking it up right now and I'll bake again either tomorrow or friday.
This one is on my list to try too (as seen on youtube). He does a nice job of making the process simple. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57611/my-1st-ever-sourdough-bake-no-knead-style
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It's kind of like how riding was for me- it took about 15 years before someone said to me that there are really only six things that one can do to the horse (whoa, go, turn, etc.), and out of those six things we end up making a Grand Prix test. My lesson in the forge, the instructor started off by saying "therr are only five ways you can move steel....
Following recipes doesn't really teach what probably amounts to the five ways one can influence dough. Because say, the recipe I followed might really hinge around using a refrigerator that is far warmer than mine. So that's why it works for him and I had trouble. A cold dough final proof doesn't act or feel like a warm dough final proof, as far as determining if it's ready, IMO. Warm dough is easier to read for me.
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The pic in my doc was technically of my levain, here is one of my starter, 24 hours after being fed. Roughly 2.5C of it as I'm using 2C to bake today. Making bread to freeze and bring to FL next week.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/20190502_071940_zpszxeh3u1h.jpg
The friend loaf yesterday was a success, she's taking some starter when I return from FL. So far, Atine has spread the love to 3 people, lol! It looks like she mails well.
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Natasha, how's it going?
I tried yours yesterday chery and it worked! I used the lower amount of flour and it was really wet but came together. I did two or three stretch & folds.
This was the first time my final proof went according to plan.
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That's great RA!!!!
What did you think about the flavor and texture?
I think it's a great, basic loaf. Nothing over the top special about it, but definitely better than the majority of bread sitting at the grocery store. It's versatile, a durable recipe, keeps for a few days and bakes up all pretty like. I've be3n using herb infused oils and they bake off super tasty.
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I haven't made anything this week. Probably should feed the starter tonight and make something tomorrow... that's the hardest part for me, planning ahead.
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Natasha-- I hear ya. It can be like a 3 day process with the frefresh etc etc
I was a little worried it wouldn't have much flavor and was pleasantly surprised. I can see that this would be a reliable standby. Thanks for sharing!
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I have to come back to update. T has been raving about this bread since he got home. He wants to go out and buy cheese to go with it & when M cane over he made her try it. :hah: so, I guess it's a hit.
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Awesome!
I'm enjoying the heck out of this thread even though I don't really have anything to contribute
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:D That's great RA! That's the kind of response I've been getting from it too. I worry that people are being polite, but when they chow it down, that's the proof.
My starter is tucked away for the week. Awwww! Gonna miss it! And I worked out a good enough logo to tape to them, so it will make folks think it's even more fancy and they are even more loved when I give them a loaf, lol. I went with the iconic look of the Dexter weathervane to give it a homey, VT look.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/received_2685890074761602_zpsqdgw596k.jpeg
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I haven't made anything this week. Probably should feed the starter tonight and make something tomorrow... that's the hardest part for me, planning ahead.
Amen to that and a pox on all the people who think that stretch and folds every 30 minutes for four hours isn't time consuming.
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CheryG, I made your bread and it’s my best bread so far. I like the crust; it’s softer and easy to chew.
I used to get a bread from HEB that was incredible. I think it was sourdough, and it had dried cherries or cranberries in it. Maybe nuts, I can’t remember. But the crust had sugar crystals and they made it zing for me.
Do you think your bread would work with those additions? I’m most concerned with the sugar on top.
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I think it would? That's one of my next projects. I think the bread has plenty of structure to support add ins. My worry would be the oven temp with that sugar- you'll get a softer crust but I'd bake at 375.
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So, I tried this again & it worked.
So, I weigh everything. I'm too afraid to use measuring cups. So, I converted your recipe to grams.
1 cup of starter is 227 grams.
1 cup of AP flour is 130 grams. 1 cup of WW flour is 120 grams.
1 cup of water is 236 grams
The first time I made it I used the gram eq of 1 cup of AP flour for the sponge and started w/ 1.5 cups of AP flour & 1 cup of WW. This made a VERY wet dough. It worked out but it was really wet.
The second time I made it I decided to go with 2 cups of AP flour and then start with .5 cup of WW. I thought this would likely be looser, since ww is "thirstier". Weirdly-- this made an extremely stiff dough. I imediately added 40 grams of additional water & let it sit for 30 minutes. It was better, but still stiff- so I added another 20 grams of water. Still stiff but I rolled with it. I mostly let it bulk ferment because it was sunday and I was running around. I did manage to get 2 stretch & folds in. I like the stretch & folds because I can feel how the dough is coming along.
After about 3 hours-- it wasn't as poofy as I wanted but I figured-- meh, I'm out of time in my day and it may or may not work, no time like the present. I shaped into rolls this time & used a cast iron pan to introduce some steam into the environment. I wasn't sure if they would rise-- but they did!
Tasty, but I under baked them a scoche.
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how do you store your bread so it doesn't go stale but also doesnt' go soft?
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I don't expect the crust to stay hard on a loaf that has oil in it. I just put it in a bag, and if i wanted to re- crisp I'd spritz with water and reheat. Some people do cook longer at a lower temp after setting the crust to dry the bread out more to keep it crustier. Me, not so much.
If I do a mixer mix on that recipe I get a fine regular bread like crumb, a stretch and fold looks like this...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/20190507_175042_zpsyapv6ubw.jpg
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i'm making your recipe again for our daily bread, Chery and... being glutton for punishment, I am also trying again an overnight method. It's 80 degrees in Seattle today and this is the first time my dough has kept up with your schedule. The final proof is going too fast. I am worried it will over proof by the time my oven is up to temp. ;;}
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<3. I frequently have that problem with preheating.
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Sourdough discard makes great crepes!
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Ooooh-- natasha, I can see that being that case. I will have to try it! I don't end up with much discard anymore because I keep only 20 grams and then feed up to what I need.
So, last weekend I tried an overnight method again. I used this one this time http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57611/my-1st-ever-sourdough-bake-no-knead-style
My technique was a mess. I started the levain at about 8 am. But, I was out of flour. By the time I went to the store & got back it was 3pm before I started the autolyse. Then, work got nuts & we were going out to dinner & to artwalk in the neighborhood with friends. So, I did the first two stretch & folds he suggests (15 minutes, 15 minutes) and the next one at about an hour. And then I left the dough out on the counter until we got back from artwalk at about 10 pm. By then it was huge & poofy and WAY over proofed. But I decided to just see what I got. But-- I still don't have baskets so I just formed the loaves and put them on a sheet pan with a towel kind of like you would do for baguettes.
The next morning I pulled them out, preheated the oven and FORGOT about them for like 3 hours. So, overproofed again. :hah: One also stuck to the towel. I baked them on a sheet pan and covered one with a big metal bowl but the other one was too big. So, I just baked it without steam.
Guess what? They came out fine and were delicious-- if a little deformed & ugly. But, once I cut them up you could barely tell.
I didn't take any bread porn pics but you can see it here on the meat & cheese tray in my brunch spread.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60473907_10157718909779119_6244250813313581056_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_eui2=AeEljyywDjJxJR_Roe4tSjXdNzBtGMTN-pIk6QbSQt4QgVSj33C_lq_AXt6ncakirmGzPbYBAbn5Xz0ZK0N0IZgRuS5DNktn9QpZqo2C6QmeyA&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=0fa3b8a7b01b29972421f7365e99fdb1&oe=5D6F720B)
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Yum, that looks delicious! Great color on your sourdough. And what a spread. :heartbeat:
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Dayum that spread looks great. Do I spy blisters on that bread? :)
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Bread people -- what's the shelf life of yeast? I have a big jar of it that I keep in the freezer. It seems to have lost its mojo a bit. Can I just add more than the recipe calls for, or do I need to toss it and buy new yeast?
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If it's lost it's oomph I'd just replace it. Otherwise it will be unpredictable, which is a bummer.
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If it's lost it's oomph I'd just replace it. Otherwise it will be unpredictable, which is a bummer.
I made a batch of bread a few weeks ago and didn't get a lot of yeast action when I did, but the bread turned out fine so I didn't worry too much about it. Then Eliza used some yesterday for a volcano science experiment and the volcano didn't blow at all. I gave her a double dose for today and hopefully it works for her, but if it doesn't I think you're right, I should just get new yeast.
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Just replace it.
But... in the future... Instant Yeast is more stable than Active Dry yeast...
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https://www.seriouseats.com/2018/03/all-about-dry-yeast-instant-active-dry-fast-acting-and-more.html
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Does anyone have experience with one of these silicone break makers? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007F6EN96/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007F6EN96/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1) I am intrigued. I usually just use my bread machine because it is easy, but would like to branch out in types of bread. I do have a cast iron dutch oven, but this thing looks nice and simple.
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I do not. :) It looks cool, but it also looks like it won't trap steam, which is why I use the Dutch oven.
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Today's project is a high hydration stretch and fold that had a cold bulk rise and an 8 hour retard straight into the oven- compared with the same dough that's being given a period to rise after the retard. I need to dial in how the dough feels and reacts during and after a retard.
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CG, how'd it go?
I tried the KA flour recipe that puts the levain in the fridge for 12 hours. Then a 5 hour bulk ferment on the counter then 2-4 hours after shaping. It sunk around my slashes again. I like the *idea* of that method because when I try and proof loaves in the fridge overnight they always seem to stick to the towel. But, I just haven't had good success with this method!
Bookworm-- clever idea-- I hadn't seen that!
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It didn't go as well as I hoped. The hydration was super high, but for kicks I went with it anyway. It just didn't have the tension to hold together, I was really pushing the envelope. Tasted great tho! I'm going to repeat this with a lower hydration loaf.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/Photo_2019-05-19_01-59-29_PM_zpsrdfbxvkb.png
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That is basically how most of my overnight retard bread looks. :( I've only gotten a good rise once or twice. TASTES amazing but falls a little flat.
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A lightbulb went off for me when a friend had been really struggling- how much the Atine recipe is really sped up because of the sugar/honey. Then I realized she said she wasn't using any sweetener. I chastised her about her not using the poke test at all... and told her it was going to take a LOT longer. Next loaf baked, she let the first rise go until the poke test was good, shaped and then retarded for 24 hours. Bam! Perfect loaf.
I think my plan should be just that- omit the sweet from Atine and after the first rise is hustling along divide it into 3 with the plan to retard them and bake off at 12, 24 and 36 hours.
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So, I had read that wild yeast can't metabolize sugar the way package yeast can. Is that wrong?
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From what I have read, yeast likes the sugar too much- the rise is fast and it doesn't make the yeast work "harder" by taking time to break down the grain sugars. As long as the recipe doesn't have added yeast in it, I'm not too worried, personally.
http://www.breadsrsly.com/blog/2017/9/13/wild-yeast-vs-commercial-yeast
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Is a higher hydration bread softer?
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The crust will still be hard. The water is baked off, the hydration is used to create maximum steam in the bread, for rise and holes. It wasn't intentional, the high hydration in that recipe. The original recipe, even with weighed ingredients, was far too stiff. Dunno, might have misweighed. So I added what was too much water, and decided to roll with it. Then I put it in the mixer to see how it would come together- not! Mixer is too strong for that type of dough and the gluten kept fracturing instead of bonding. So i switched to S and F, it came together beautifully- I think I misread how much tension I needed in the shaping.
https://www.sfbi.com/high-hydration-dough-shaping.html
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If you've ever had something like a ciabatta? That is a high hydration dough.
My latest atine loaf was great! I find that the atine reicpe is pretty forgiving about whether you start with a ripe starter or one that is active but maybe past the peak. But, yesterday I used a ripe starter (fed at 5am) and worked on it all day and it's a beaut!
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This mind blowing beaut was just posted- high hydration ciabatta-
https://www.facebook.com/groups/perfectsourdough/permalink/2796540347082958/
I think of the skill progression as being-
First level- typical yeast bread
Second level- "Spiked" wild yeast bread
Third Level- Atine type wild yeast bread (sugars added)
Fourth level- "Pure" wild yeast, just water, starter, flour and salt.
Intermediare- "Pure" wild yeast, with a retard
Prix St Georges- High hydration wild yeast
Grand Prix- sourdough croissant
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Today's bake: The Atine recipe, minus sugar and oil. Levain sat for 12 hours (oops), stretch and fold for 3 hours, retard for 8 hours. I wanted to retard it for longer but it looked like it had risen too much already and would be overproofed.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bx43iFvAWxI/?igshid=1tue3imx8pn9g
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oh wow Cheryl!
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Just in case...
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/flour-recall-ecoli-trnd/index.html
Our bag of KA flour already has a March sell by date, so I’m assuming the regular bakers will have already gone through the flour in question.
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Thanks! I'll check mine. You should not consume products with raw flour in them for that exact reason so I'm kind of torn either way. Bread gets baked at 450 degrees for an hour!
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Luckily for me I still had the empty bag in the recycling bin, as I dump mine out into a container. My flour is fine. A lot of bakers are killing their starters because of this.
I ate raw dough every day for eight years, I think the overall chance for infuction is pretty slim.
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So the Foodbod recipe gets a huge thumbs up from me. I used Bobs Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour, started the recipe at 4:30 last night, left it on the counter all night, shaped and retarded in the fridge at 9am, baked it off at around 1:30pm this afternoon. It's beautiful, the crumb is open and velvety, it's sour... love it.
https://foodbodsourdough.com/the-process/
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Woot woot! The pic I took today of my breads is the group cover photo on FB "Sourdough bread baking"
The little things in life, ya know?
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It looks fantastic
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Does anyone have experience with one of these silicone break makers? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007F6EN96/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007F6EN96/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1) I am intrigued. I usually just use my bread machine because it is easy, but would like to branch out in types of bread. I do have a cast iron dutch oven, but this thing looks nice and simple.
I picked up one of these. First attempt was the other day with a no-knead rye, mostly just due to time constraints for dinner. The crumb turned out great, it was less than pretty, though, but that is probably user error on my end and not using the best recipe. Today is a whole wheat no knead, I am working my way through a bread baking book starting with this one but DH requested a course whole wheat bread. So far, at first rise it is looking lovely.
The convenience of using one tool from mixing through baking is nice. The crust on the last one turned out great which is a huge improvement already over the bread machine.
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I picked up one of these. First attempt was the other day with a no-knead rye, mostly just due to time constraints for dinner. The crumb turned out great, it was less than pretty, though, but that is probably user error on my end and not using the best recipe. Today is a whole wheat no knead, I am working my way through a bread baking book starting with this one but DH requested a course whole wheat bread. So far, at first rise it is looking lovely.
The convenience of using one tool from mixing through baking is nice. The crust on the last one turned out great which is a huge improvement already over the bread machine.
That's wild! I just ordered one but haven't received it yet. I needed something nonmetal to bake in.
The bread pictures on Amazon look really nice. How did your whole wheat bread turn out?
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That's wild! I just ordered one but haven't received it yet. I needed something nonmetal to bake in.
The bread pictures on Amazon look really nice. How did your whole wheat bread turn out?
It was pretty dense, but it was a lot of whole wheat flower, and not pretty. It was a no knead so that didn't help and I haven't done much bread making up to that point. It baked up well if not a bit odd shaped, have to work on the shaping a bit more but overall I was happy with it. I do need more practice with it.
I used it yesterday to make a 12 hour fermented boule. I didn't bake it in that, I wanted to try the le creuset for a change, but it also works very well for mixing by hand and proofing. I also used it to mix pita dough a few times last week for slouvaki night. Easy clean up. I will try baking in it again next week.
I did just mix up my first ever sourdough starter today so we shall see how that works out.
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I did just mix up my first ever sourdough starter today so we shall see how that works out.
oooh! welcome!
I have not been baking lately. But, I am limping my starter along for the day I'll return to baking.
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oooh! welcome!
I have not been baking lately. But, I am limping my starter along for the day I'll return to baking.
The starter has been insanely hungry so I started the first batch of dough rising this morning. Hopefully by this evening we have a loaf of bread or two.
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Nice! Tell us about the results. What recipe are you using?
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Nice! Tell us about the results. What recipe are you using?
The basic sourdough recipe in the book Bread Baking for Beginners by Bonnie OHara. Her other recipes have been great and easy to follow so I figured I would go with her sourdough as well. It does make two loaves so after this first batch I will have to cut it in half if it works out. There is no way we can go through two loaves before they go bad and I don't have a ton of fridge/freezer space to keep extra dough.
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Yep, I always make one loaf at a time. Which we have no problem eating with a day or two. It's so good, it just magically disappears.
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Yep, I always make one loaf at a time. Which we have no problem eating with a day or two. It's so good, it just magically disappears.
I figured I would follow the directions as written the first go around and run the extra down the road to my sister as long as it is edible.
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I figured I would follow the directions as written the first go around and run the extra down the road to my sister as long as it is edible.
Even better
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Bread turned out okay. Nice golden crust and some oven spring but not as much as I had hoped for. Taste is good but I think my starter needs to mature a bit more and the loaves didn't rise as much as wanted during proofing either, but overall not a bad first attempt.
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That's a great update, bookworm!
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The next bread DH wants is a Scottish bap which we have been missing dearly since we moved back to the states. https://www.food.com/recipe/scottish-baps-soft-morning-bread-rolls-302697 (https://www.food.com/recipe/scottish-baps-soft-morning-bread-rolls-302697) This new hobby of mine is not helping my eating healthy goals.
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The next bread DH wants is a Scottish bap which we have been missing dearly since we moved back to the states. https://www.food.com/recipe/scottish-baps-soft-morning-bread-rolls-302697 (https://www.food.com/recipe/scottish-baps-soft-morning-bread-rolls-302697) This new hobby of mine is not helping my eating healthy goals.
I know the feeling! :-[
Funny story: I started making bread because my husband has memories of the little bread you get at breakfast in Germany and he loves them so much and you just can't find anything like that here. So, after trying every roll in town I started making my own. Then chery convinced me to try the sourdough. So, I no longer make little rolls. :D
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I know the feeling! :-[
Funny story: I started making bread because my husband has memories of the little bread you get at breakfast in Germany and he loves them so much and you just can't find anything like that here. So, after trying every roll in town I started making my own. Then chery convinced me to try the sourdough. So, I no longer make little rolls. :D
I'm switching to the little rolls because we almost never finish a loaf before it goes bad so I want something with a longer shelf life or that I can freeze some of. The sourdough is addicting.
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I just slice the loaf and freeze it so I can pull out slices whenever i want.
Ok folks, packaging presentation question!
Currently I put the loaf in a plastic bag, then into a kraft paper gift bag with handles, and slap my label on that. I need to get more of the gift bags so am considering options...
I could go with the same, or...
linen bags, hand stamped "logo" on it
wrapped in kraft paper, tied with string, again i could stamp the logo on it.
Which sounds better, as a gift?
I like the idea of the linen bag, but it seems wasteful to me, unless reused.
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I like the nice paper bags with handles. I feel guilty about having linen bags or whathaveyou that are hard to re-use - they don't stand up and really only fit a couple of books or spare pair of shoes - just not useful. Plus the nice paper bags stand up by themselves on gift tables or under the Christmas tree. I totally re-use those for gift bags, whether or not they have a logo on them that has anything to do with the gift I'm giving. (Note I just spent 5 years in a relationship with a man who uses duct tape on gift packages, so what is reusable got skewed a bit.)
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I like the craft paper wrapping idea. Plastic ruins your crust.
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I like the craft paper wrapping idea. Plastic ruins your crust.
Good point. When I give a loaf out that's been baked the same day I just put it in the kraft bag and twistie a plastic one to the handle for later. IMO, past 6 hour or so, plastic is actually the way to go to keep it fresher. The crust can be revived.
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Sourdough hack if you bake in a hot dutch oven on parchment...
Go buy a grill mat that is rated for 500F and above.
Cut the grill mat to fit the bottom of your dutch oven, but leave two tabs on either side to lower the dough into the oven.
I saw one on a FB group so made one and wow does it work slick!
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Do you use the grill mat instead of parchment?
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Yes. It's easier to lower it in without burning oneself, and totally eliminates any parchment paper wrinkles along the side of the loaf. Woot!
Helps to dust the bottom of the loaf before inverting onto the grill mat, just in case you need to center it better.
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Well, after a long hiatus, I have the Atine recipe working now. Hopefully Donovan is still hail & healthy (I did 3 days of feeding every 12 hours).
BW how's your sourdough coming along?
ETA today's effort. The first time I've baked in that dutch oven I bought. I guess I bought too large a size. Oopsie! Still turned out better than my previous improvisations though!
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/68443825_428656791071627_2113462237090807808_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQlug8d7dVVYp8GduN2viFOSvMMO6-aBBTPSQ7l3GwpAv6R5j-PtzwNPRPY3xB6O-Cc&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=397866734b09c060a53e2e86c0292612&oe=5DD84FA0)
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Sourdough hack if you bake in a hot dutch oven on parchment...
Go buy a grill mat that is rated for 500F and above.
Cut the grill mat to fit the bottom of your dutch oven, but leave two tabs on either side to lower the dough into the oven.
I saw one on a FB group so made one and wow does it work slick!
Can I see a pic of your grill mat?
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Me again on bake day. Buying a dutch oven was definitely a game changer. Maybe next I'll get crazy and buy a banneton.
I used the Josh Weissman "no knead sourdough" recipe which is like 5 minutes of kneading and then 3 stretch & folds then form loaves and into fridge for 14 hours then straight into the oven. I think it was probably a little under proofed which is why it exploded all over the place despite my slashes. Also, a little under baked I think.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/69022890_1064547740602616_5200711727620030464_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQlKk0GnulBMJ8f4CDeX4tSe16rchv72KaWNqHxsWr_BQqAkzKUyOTO_RwV9Spabckk&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=e45cb37c54e055edef63925ae65de734&oe=5DE453AD)
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it's gorgeous though. bet it smelled fab out of the oven.
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It's beautiful! I like the exploded look.
The grill mats, cut down...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/CheryG/20190816_163227_zpsuv7q4f6m.jpg
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Has anyone else been getting ads for Challenger Breadware?
It's a beautiful pot, but $185? Oh my. I iist ordered a camp Chef 13" square DO for less than $50.
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I looked that up Chery, they look cool but single use items are tough in my tiny kitchen!
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So, my starter never really does the "double in 4 hours" thing although it definitely rises bread, obviously. So, in order to give it a little kick-start, I decided to go back to feeding it on whole wheat and feed it at 12 or less hour intervals to see if I could get it really rip-roaring. Well, it started to smell really badly (like eggs). I did some research and wrote in to KA and the consensus from everything I could find was that my starter had become infected with something & I should toss it.
I was struggling a little with that because DH *named* our starter and he always asks if our bread is from Donovan. I know.. silly. But there you have it.
So, I decided not to kill Donovan just yet and to try and start a new starter and see what would happen. Well. It was very active straight out of the gate but OMG by day two, it smelled and looked putrid. Just awful. Like gagworthy.
So, I've concluded it was something to do with the flour and after some MORE reading-- I've seen that others have had the same problem with whole wheat. So, I went and got some rye flour & I am now feeding both starters with that. Donovan is already smelling better. The other one is a little better but not 100%.
The trials of keeping a living colony happy!
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Oh my!!!!!!!! Is the new flour still better?
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Yes! But it's taken all week?
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That's crazy. So strange! I keep meaning to dry some starter as a backup of something like that ever happens. Maybe you've inspired me to get going on that.
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Well, after a long hiatus, I have the Atine recipe working now. Hopefully Donovan is still hail & healthy (I did 3 days of feeding every 12 hours).
BW how's your sourdough coming along?
ETA today's effort. The first time I've baked in that dutch oven I bought. I guess I bought too large a size. Oopsie! Still turned out better than my previous improvisations though!
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/68443825_428656791071627_2113462237090807808_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQlug8d7dVVYp8GduN2viFOSvMMO6-aBBTPSQ7l3GwpAv6R5j-PtzwNPRPY3xB6O-Cc&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=397866734b09c060a53e2e86c0292612&oe=5DD84FA0)
I haven't done much baking the past month-ish. My starter is limping along in the fridge at the moment. I did do an 12 hour fermented (that actually ended up closer to 18 hours because I had a doctors appointment and was gone longer than I thought I would be)no knead bread a week or so ago. It was pretty good. I topped it with some trader joes everything bagel seasoning for fun. The 18 hour is nice because it gets a bit of the sourdough tang and the texture is dense and chewy like a sourdough but it takes very little work. I would probably skip the seasoning, it was good, but really messy. Sadly, the dog broke into the bin on the counter and ate the rest of it so we only got one serving. She has a weakness for bread products and will find them in all sorts of places we thought were out of her reach.
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Sadly, the dog broke into the bin on the counter and ate the rest of it so we only got one serving. She has a weakness for bread products and will find them in all sorts of places we thought were out of her reach.
Clearly a purebread.
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Oh no, bookworm! Lol!!
I've been selling bread, three orders this week. For fun Ive realized that I can do custom stenciling without much effort and it makes people super happy.
I'm working on a spinach feta loaf, and a pickle (!) loaf. Honey graham has been popular.
I've been in contact with the health inspector, so am mpving forward with the home bakery.
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Oh no, bookworm! Lol!!
I've been selling bread, three orders this week. For fun Ive realized that I can do custom stenciling without much effort and it makes people super happy.
I'm working on a spinach feta loaf, and a pickle (!) loaf. Honey graham has been popular.
I've been in contact with the health inspector, so am mpving forward with the home bakery.
Oh thank god, I thought you were eating all this bread yourself!
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Bookworm-- I have a cat like that. Hell, I'm like that!
CG that is so exciting!!! Here bread is an exempt class of food so very little in the way of health dept intervention. :)
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Clearly a purebread.
Lab/beagle. The worst of both breeds. Bottomless stomach and too smart for her own good.
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Oh no, bookworm! Lol!!
I've been selling bread, three orders this week. For fun Ive realized that I can do custom stenciling without much effort and it makes people super happy.
I'm working on a spinach feta loaf, and a pickle (!) loaf. Honey graham has been popular.
I've been in contact with the health inspector, so am mpving forward with the home bakery.
That's awesome. How fun.
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Today's bake. I haven't cut into it yet, but so far really happy. I used Sarah Owens' "table loaf" recipe which uses only 10 grams of starter. Amazing.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69486185_10157997357529119_1610362476845596672_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQkr09SrXFWaxtTYfbrxbhBmp6CbIkxXKjeqM4LbP0yRjIKgPadXynEqU9TJ8v1MSZ4&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=17fcbde77ab39b64c8b5b4ac30437fc0&oe=5DFA275F)
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Pretty! Y'all have to stop testing my resolve.
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that's gorgeous!
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Beautiful!! :heartbeat:
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Not sourdough, but I am rather proud of how this boule turned out.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82290692_10215884280001753_4827527954915393536_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=SxUB7_jpTJ0AX8D944y&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=adfed932ffc89acaad9c793be2f736cd&oe=5EA0BC56)
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:heartbeat: Love it.
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Not sourdough, but I am rather proud of how this boule turned out.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82290692_10215884280001753_4827527954915393536_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=SxUB7_jpTJ0AX8D944y&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=adfed932ffc89acaad9c793be2f736cd&oe=5EA0BC56)
Looks wonderful!
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Beautiful!
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Beautiful!
It was tasty too. Just a quick no knead bread but it turned out really nice and airy.
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I just baked off two loaves that I meant to bake yesterday. I had started the levain and then got distracted so put it all in the fridge after it had become bubbly. Pulled it back out today, added flour, etc., and it rose beautifully. One loaf was turmeric and pepper, the other Tuscan herb.
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I got the America's Test Kitchen Bread Illustrated book yesterday. To break it in I made the garlic knots from the book since we had lasagne for dinner. So tasty and easy. Now to work through the rest of the recipes.
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I started my own starter today ( recipe courtesy of New Scientist!)
I’ve been meaning to try before but it’s necessary now. No yeast in the supermarket 🤬
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womble, how's it going?
I'm actually making yeast bread today for some older neighbors who didn't get any because it was sold out at the store.
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that's very sweet of you, CheryG
I read about rye starter and a Portuguese rye bread recipe on the Leite's Culinaria newsletter this morning. Now I'm tempted to see if I can get my hands on rye flour.
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Yum. I think you need to. Around here I'm able to find rye where they carry Bob's Red Mill flours. Or the Co-ops if I want to drive.
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Bob's red mill makes a nice rye flour. Rye has a lot less gluten so you definitely want to use a recipe that is designed for rye.
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womble, how's it going?
I'm actually making yeast bread today for some older neighbors who didn't get any because it was sold out at the store.
Stressing the fuck out and wishing I had a rideable horse lol. I found the mice had chewed my helmet lining over summer and almost rushed out before our lock down to buy another so I could bring one of my lot back into work!
Anyway, back to sourdough. I don’t think after researching that I can get a starter going but I was thinking a sodabread might be tomorrow’s goal!
Im trying to conserve flour until we are restocked ( none today :( ) but i caved and made banana bread for the kids lol....
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I'm trying to revive my starter that got thrown into the freezer for a month. After about a week it is starting to look like it might come back but I think it will take a couple of weeks to mature again to where I want to use it.
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I'm pretty sure my rye sourdough starter is the adult version of a tamagotchi. I remembered last night (day 4) in bed that I forgot to feed it but it seems ok today maybe :fingers: :fingers:
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I'm pretty sure my rye sourdough starter is the adult version of a tamagotchi. I remembered last night (day 4) in bed that I forgot to feed it but it seems ok today maybe :fingers: :fingers:
Starter is pretty resilient. I have left mine for a month and it was fine. Takes a couple of days to rescue and definitely more happy and lively fed weekly or so...but fine.
What starter doesn't survive is being washed down the sink. :(
So, I'm on my second starter. A gift from a neighbor who learned to bake from my dad 25+ years ago, coincidentally. Anyway, I'm realizing my original starter was lind of anemic. This one is much more active.
I've used it in a lot of things but have yet to bake a loaf with it. Today is bake day. Loaf in the oven. We'll see how it turns out.
I used Sarah Owen's table loaf recipe which is a very long slow ferment.
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Update #1 good news, it rose. Bad news I under proofed it. I was worried about that. Oh well. Should still taste good.
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I bet it's still delicious. And it's lovely that she passed on the starter after learning the art from your dad.
You're right RA; it bounced back just fine (smell was a teeny bit vinegary after it's day of fasting but not an off smell) and it was fine a few hours later the next day. I think it helps that we have under cabinet lighting and I've been using it generously w/ the starter container placed close enough to bask in its warmth. Also I'm super happy I posted that the other day b/c I couldn't remember if this was day 6 or 7 and now I know it's 7. :)
I think I can start baking with it tomorrow? If so, I'm going for it. Otherwise Pesach begins on Wednesday night and I'll have to pop the start in the fridge and wait until it's over.
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Yeah, try it. It's still pretty young. A lot of times it takes more th than a week for a strong colony to form and sometimes I guess it never happens.
You can try the float test or go by how quickly it doubles in size.
My loaf is out of the oven. Always such a thrill.
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Sounds like maybe I should give it another week? I don't mind doing that for the payoff of yummy rye bread after Pesach.
How'd the loaf turn out?
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Well, it doesn't hurt too try it. How active is it? How fast does it double in size?
I think I might try this method next time.
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Well, it doesn't hurt too try it. How active is it? How fast does it double in size?
I think I might try this method next time.
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2020/04/06/dont-be-a-bread-hostage
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It seemed to grow really quickly. It's been liking the process. hmmm
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I decided to feed it again and let it go until after Pesach. This last feeding involved only keeping .25 of an ounce. I didn't want to throw the rest away so I have it in a separate container for tonight #silly
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Oh yes, you gotta just make peace with the discard process. Once it's healthy & reliably doubles in 4 hours you can keep as little as 20 grams going. My favorite recipe only calls for 10 grams of fed starter so much more than that is a waste.
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I haven't had a sourdough starter on the go for a few years, but I remember how much it hurt to be discarding as much as a cup of starter everytime I fed it... so I started looking for recipes to use the equivalent of the discard... these crackers (with or without zaatar, with or without substituted flavourings/seeds) were the best thing I ever made from discard
http://bintrhodaskitchen.blogspot.com/2013/04/zait-and-zaatar-sourdough-crackers.html
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bookmarked
I made half a batch of these and they're not the best, but tasty. Especially since we won't be eating bread for a few days come sundown:
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-pretzels-recipe
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I hate it when a recipe fails. What happened?
That one has been on my list to make too.
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the dough was a little weird - I think b/c I didn't have the powdered milk. still tasty though.
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My apologies because I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but this thread is LONG:
- Is it okay that I only have bleached flour?
- Our water is chlorinated. Should I leave some to sit out and try to dissipate?
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And I'll throw in a question:
My starter is on Day 11 and in the fridge. I did the feed/discard thing 2 days ago. Should I pull it out of the fridge and do that again or can I leave it in (dormant?) until a day or two before I want to use?
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A lot depends on how strong your starter is and how you want to use it. I keep mine in the fridge all the time and don't bither to feed it before using. Once I take some out I feed it, let it sit ar room temp for a while, then i stick it back int he fridge until the next time.
All it does is make that first rise go more slowly if I'm not using a levain first.
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Got it. Thanks, I’m learning. :)
Made one of KAs sourdough replies today that called for a little yeast and the starter. Turned out to be delicious if not the prettiest.
I maybe need to do better than baking on a sheet though it’s not a high priority at this point. I don’t really want to use my pretty Dutch oven. But I definitely need something sharper to slash. Should I get a lame?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/185f69bf947abf19ee6d184fdc4964eb.jpg)
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I don't have a lame or bannetons. I use a single razor blade. A lame is basically just a razor blade holder.
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I use disposable scalpels from Amazon. They're super sharp and stay sharp for cutting dough for a long time.
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Example- it's been about two weeks since I've used my starter and I didn't have enough for my basic one day short rise sourdough.
So, I took the 1C of starter, added enough flour and water to make 2C of "levain". I wanted two separate loaves, so divided that 2C into two bowls.
To each bowl I added 1C of water and 1C of spelt.
Put them into my oven with the pilot light on. 5 hours later they were fully bubbled and ready to go. I added the rest of the ingredients (roughly 2.5C bread flour to each) and it's looking like the first rise will be 1.5hrs, I'll give them a second rise of 45 minutes to an hour, however long it takes.
Even if I use a longer rise recipe with less of an inoculation of starter I still don't pre feed the starter. Bulk rise will just take longer.
I think the flavors are better this way, and I never have the waste of discard.
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Got it. Thanks, that's really helpful. The starter from Leite didn't make much so I really only had enough for the sourdough recipe on KA's site that calls for yeast and starter. I'm fixing that now.
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I made these crackers from some discard and they were fantastic:
https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html
I almost like them more than sourdough bread. Didn't have the wheat flour (and can't seem to get it online yet) so used all white + the bit of rye. For the herbs I used Penzey's sandwich sprinkle. Picked up some cheeses yesterday at a cheese shop I trust and man was it all good together.
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I'll have to try those, thanks!
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I just have to say, I really enjoy reading this thread even though I don't enjoy bread making. :)
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I made the crackers and they are really good. I like being able to use up some of my seasonings as they are getting older and are losing their potency. The crackers will definitely go into regular rotation.
My breads don't brown very well. Tips, anyone?
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oh good! I also made this (non sourdough) easy peasy bread from KA's website and it was a good use of herbs too:
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/crusty-cloche-bread-recipe
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Natasha are you baking inside something, like a pot?
I bought some store brand bread flour. My dough is weird. :(
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Natasha are you baking inside something, like a pot?
I bought some store brand bread flour. My dough is weird. :(
I do have a heavy pot that I can put over the bread as it's baking. It didn't seem to help, but maybe I am remembering wrong.
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Honestly, I didn't have great results with a pot or bowl over the bread. Not sure why. Once I started baking in a dutch oven things got much better.
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Also, what temp are you baking at?
You could try CGs recipe. It includes some added sugar which will help browning
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So the Foodbod recipe gets a huge thumbs up from me. I used Bobs Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour, started the recipe at 4:30 last night, left it on the counter all night, shaped and retarded in the fridge at 9am, baked it off at around 1:30pm this afternoon. It's beautiful, the crumb is open and velvety, it's sour... love it.
https://foodbodsourdough.com/the-process/
Alright, going to give this a shot. I need to figure out how to alter the recipe for a warmer kitchen.
I have a small oven without a thermostat, so it's guesswork on what temp I bake at, especially if I'm using something enclosed like a dutch oven. I set the oven to whatever is in the recipe and leave it for 15-30 minutes to preheat.
I will say, I miss the immediate gratification of other kinds of bread. I decided to make sourdough this morning, and *may* be able to finish it by tomorrow evening.
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Wow! Using the Dutch oven cold is a game changer for me. This is the best rise I’ve ever had, and so much easier, not having to drop dough into a super hot metal pan. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200519/fcfd25d8848037cd19c392f0ea3efcd8.jpg)
My crust still didn’t brown though, and I removed the lid and baked longer as she suggested.
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Yay Natasha!!! If you're certain your oven is reaching high enough temps, maybe proof a little less?
This was my fun today- I'm not 100% happy with how it baked off, but it's yummy as all heck!
https://www.instagram.com/p/CAdzi2LFAb5/?igshid=ba5zfuhbjktk
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Do you have a recipe for that one? Gorgeous!
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Has anyone found a good soft sourdough recipe, like the milk bread?
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These cookies are really good. Good way to use discard. https://www.eatthelove.com/sourdough-chocolate-chip-cookies/
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Do you have a recipe for that one? Gorgeous!
I used this as a base recipe, sort of, lol. Most important is the consistency of the dough going in the pan, so even though there is a recipe linked in the description, watch the video to see the dough at that point.
https://youtu.be/vYASHBSbiJ8
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This is my latest sourdough project- to use a bit of the starter to "ferment" veggies before adding them to the dough. My first batch was carrots and I added some dill before baking. Should have let the carrots ferment longer, *someone* forgot to grate them earlier. Oops! But still wicked yum. Gonna try some red cabbage when the weather cools down again.
Not the best pic, but whatevs.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CCyvzGTghEg/?igshid=1hsw1l95f4ewi
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I have given up on sourdough. No matter what I try I end up with funky mold after a few weeks. I think there is something in the air in my house. Instead my favorite is a no knead long ferment bread where you let it sit somewhere between 12 and 18 ish hours. Gets a bit of the sourdough chewy/tanginess, but is almost effortless.
I also found a great no knead sandwich bread recipe that takes almost no time to make, mix in the stand mixer and about a 40 minute rise before going in the oven. It is in the America's Test Kitchen Bread Illustrated. Yesterday I made a honey and purple barley flour loaf. I picked up the barley flour at the farmers market. Makes for tasty sandwiches.
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This is a question for general bread baking. Should the rising be before baking or in the oven? Or does it depend on the type of bread?
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For a yeast bread, I think the answer is always: both.
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For a yeast bread, I think the answer is always: both.
So, how do I know when it’s risen enough? And do I still slice the top before putting g it on the oven?
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So, how do I know when it’s risen enough? And do I still slice the top before putting g it on the oven?
Sorry I missed this! The answer for yeast bread is definitely both. And how to tell is a bit of a mystery as well as science. I go by feel. Some people use what's called the poke test- as in you poke the bread and watch how it responds. https://www.bonappetit.com/story/the-poke-test
I gently squeeze it and depending on the hydration am looking for a certain feel. My fridge runs cold so if I'm going to retard a dough I make sure it's risen to just about the point where I would put it in the oven before I put it in the fridge and then I'll put it straight into a hot oven from the fridge.
The second rise, or oven spring, is from the heat related expansion of the gases the yeast has created by rising. At least, when those gases are also trapped in the balloon that the gluten creates.
Right now I'm all about the discard tortillas. Sooooo good!
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Sorry I missed this! The answer for yeast bread is definitely both. And how to tell is a bit of a mystery as well as science. I go by feel. Some people use what's called the poke test- as in you poke the bread and watch how it responds. https://www.bonappetit.com/story/the-poke-test
I gently squeeze it and depending on the hydration am looking for a certain feel. My fridge runs cold so if I'm going to retard a dough I make sure it's risen to just about the point where I would put it in the oven before I put it in the fridge and then I'll put it straight into a hot oven from the fridge.
The second rise, or oven spring, is from the heat related expansion of the gases the yeast has created by rising. At least, when those gases are also trapped in the balloon that the gluten creates.
Right now I'm all about the discard tortillas. Sooooo good!
Thanks, that helps. I haven't been baking for a while now but may try something tomorrow.
What about these tortillas??
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I use:
1.5C bread flour
1 1/4t salt
3T olive oil
100g water
100g discard
Knead
Divide into balls (6)
Let rest at least 30 minutes
Roll until super thin
Cook on a HOT skillet not long on each side.
Sooo good.
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Today's fun were little pepperoni rolls. I used my everyday sourdough bread recipe divided into 70g balls and stuffed sticks of pepperoni into them. I could have used more pepperoni, :(
https://www.instagram.com/p/CPRcCOlgya-/?utm_medium=copy_link