Author Topic: Running intuitively, is it possible?  (Read 2291 times)

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Offline CheryG

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Running intuitively, is it possible?
« on: January 10, 2020, 10:02:26 AM »
I was excited to read "How Bad Do You Want It", because it's a topic that intrigues me.  How the perception of effort relates to workouts.

I've never been able to predict running "injuries", and often question whether or not I train too hard, or not hard enough. I agree that an alterable perception is a huge part of running, but how does one really know?  I think the 80/20 is probably the safe middle ground and that's kind of what I'm going with, but I sometimes see outliers and wonder if it's physical or mental.

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2020, 10:36:14 AM »
I have not read the book so I am not familiar with his thesis. Somewhat familiar with 80/20, but as a masters runner I'm more like 85-90/15-10.

That said, I've been self coached since college and have more or less been an intuitive runner since. Now my overall ability may be questionable (that one guy really ripped me up a ways back), but have put in something like 80,000 (+/-5,0000) lifetime miles and have had some results that aren't too bad. I have read a lot, practiced several different approaches, and tend to go by feel. I have an idea what I need to do in the week or two ahead but roll with the specifics as a training day or race approaches.
I'll stick to running, thank you.

Offline CheryG

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2020, 10:53:40 AM »
The basic premise of the book is that it's the brain that primarily regulates muscle function and not the muscles themselves.  An extreme example would be the feats of strength ordinary people are capable of in emergencies, lifting cars off loved ones, etc. He provides more running specific examples of the mental game athletes tend to employ.  I confess that I haven't yet finished the book, as diablita mentioned the prose is long and weary and there is a limit to how many "omg I dug deeper then I won!!!" stories I want to read.

I also note that the author mentions having an above average injury rate.  The people who perform the feats of strength seem to be notably wrecked afterwards, I remember reading one story where the person suffered permanently.

It fascinates me.

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2020, 11:10:57 AM »
Sounds similar to Endure by Alex Hutchinson, he gets into some of that.
I'll stick to running, thank you.

Offline CheryG

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 02:28:02 PM »
Most likely. It's all the same stuff, I think Deena Kastor's "Let Your Mind Run" would be very similar as well.

In addition to taking away my confidence that I can read my body, lol, I think that all this is sometimes presented a little too much as a way to overcome training and genetics.  That's why I mentioned in the other thread that I hoped the book would end up bringing some things together better in the end.  Cause you can't tell me these feats of strength stories on one side, and then on the other say that some people are simply born fitter than other people will ever be no matter how much they train.  I feel those are contradictory.

Anywhoo, as of late I've decided that for me a better predictor of effort isn't while I run, it's how recovered I feel the next day or two days later.  I had one day this week where I felt fantastic, my legs felt so strong, fresh and effortless to move so I kicked up the speed a bit... only to find out afterwards that I was slower than usual.  Lol.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 02:34:16 PM by CheryG »

Offline diablita

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 07:24:31 PM »
I agree that it's mostly a sell job on the idea that you can overcome genetic talent gaps with hard work and grit.  Teach yourself to perceive the effort as lower and you'll hit new levels of performance.  PE functions as a throttle.


But there's a lot of truth to it.  Cheryl, that run where you thought you were going faster probably was a run where your perceived effort for that pace was higher.
"Some things you just need to do for yourself, even if it means nicking your nads."  --nneJ

Offline CheryG

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 09:20:34 PM »
But my effort didn't feel harder, it really felt as if the trees were going by faster. It's not the only time I've had a run like that.  Apparently I really suck at evaluating my pace, lol.

And there is a lot of truth to developing mental tolerance, but maybe not so much guidance as to how much tolerance one already has?  Someone who is frequently getting injured, maybe they need to learn to tolerate less?

I think I crush myself because I don't believe and I don't trust.  In order for me to have confidence in myself I end up overtraining for my level of fitness. 


Offline diablita

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2020, 09:26:15 PM »
well I just don't know about tolerating less because I want to work my way out of being injured all the time lately by doing more ;).  But truly, I don't think you can train yourself to be less tolerant. Maybe there are warning signs you we miss?

I think we all do that (overtrain b/c we don't trust the process) to some degree, maybe except Wilson.  If X will help then surely X+N will help more.
I have gotten better about running the quality/hard runs hard and the easy runs easy.  Not perfect, but better. 
"Some things you just need to do for yourself, even if it means nicking your nads."  --nneJ

Offline CheryG

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2020, 09:45:24 PM »
I did hear on one podcast that pain tolerance waxes and wanes throughout a training cycle, so I do think it's possible to become less tolerant.

I'm trying to be much more mindful about my workouts as well.  Easy days easy, but I can't seem to pull off really hard days, I've been trying to work them in more gently.  It's occured to me that maybe I don't trust the process because I'm not listening to my body enough.

Offline CheryG

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Offline diablita

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2020, 07:58:08 AM »
I like her.  Will listen.

And I'll defer to Wilson's wisdom but when I'm having trouble running my tough days it's because I didn't take the easy days easy enough.  Or I'm coming down with something/overtrained...and then my HRV score usually confirms it.
"Some things you just need to do for yourself, even if it means nicking your nads."  --nneJ

Offline CheryG

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2020, 09:20:37 AM »
For me I learned an important lesson on Mt Garfield- I was completely unfit, not in training and went for a hike.  I was ANGRY. My father was dying, it was not going well.  I pushed the hike, a 4,000 footer, 10 miles, did it in 3 hours.  Felt tired at the end, but not hugely bad. Felt great to get rid of some anger and be able to control the effort I just put in.  Woke up the next morning unale to walk due to pain in my left knee.  It took dry needling and about a year of therapy to fix.

A classic too much too soon, but it didn't feel like that when was doing it. Sooooo not intuitive, but def a learning experience.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 09:30:45 AM by CheryG »

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2020, 09:50:37 AM »
Last winter my training was at a bit less of a level than 2018, but I was consistent, healthy, and got in all the key workouts. In Poland I ran that half marathon a full minute faster than you might expect from the training, and about 40 seconds faster than my best case visions. Had good weather and made a crazy move 30 minutes into it to take the age lead, and then just ran out of my head for the next 30 minutes. Factor in age grading and level of competition, that was the best race of my life.

And yes, I read Deena Kastor's book in 2018 and it was an inspiration.
I'll stick to running, thank you.

Offline CheryG

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2020, 11:07:56 AM »
It makes perfect sense to me that someone  with a massive lifetime base, who gets in key workouts, and who probably has average genetics can run from their head for 30 minutes and be fine.

Someone with almost no base and average genetics probably shouldn't be running from their head for 3 hours and expect it to end very well.

Offline diablita

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Re: Running intuitively, is it possible?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2020, 01:39:42 PM »
yeah that big base is a big deal
"Some things you just need to do for yourself, even if it means nicking your nads."  --nneJ

 

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