Chi running

[cindyleigh]

I watched some videos.  I still don't get it.  Does anyone do this?

Is it running while leaning forward?

[arc918]

It's a way for people who aren't bound by the laws of physics & gravity to extract money from other runners...

[caito]

It's actually the reason the phrase "shut up & run" was invented.

[siamesedream]

I think better running economy comes from simply running more miles.


Trying to overthink and force mechanical changes on stride and body position don't work.

[Fionn mac Cumhail]

Snake oil...

[jomike]

I stuck a seed pad to my balding dome and grew that stuff out to a big green 'fro and it didn't make a lick of difference.  What a B.S. artist.

[Fionn mac Cumhail]

I stuck a seed pad to my balding dome and grew that stuff out to a big green 'fro and it didn't make a lick of difference.  What a B.S. artist.

You sound in a better mood, you old goofball! 

[jomike]

You sound in a better mood, you old goofball! 

Thanks.   Somebody's got to do the groaners, puns, and cheap yuks

[cindyleigh]

Hmm, interesting comments.

So, what about minimalist running?

[Fionn mac Cumhail]

Hmm, interesting comments.

So, what about minimalist running?

Maximalist is the new minimalist...Hoka, baby!

[merigayle]

Maximalist is the new minimalist...Hoka, baby!

Amen!

[radial]

I watched some videos.  I still don't get it.  Does anyone do this?

Is it running while leaning forward?

No, nobody does it. 

[Natasha]

I got the book from the library this summer and read a couple of chapters. I wasn't that impressed and can't remember much. Yes, it's lean forward while running and try to have a midfoot strike.

[cindyleigh]

Maximalist is the new minimalist...Hoka, baby!

yeah, I'm thinking about getting the Brooks Transcend ..which have a pretty fat pad!

I got the book from the library this summer and read a couple of chapters.

good idea!  I'll do the same.

[HobbyJogger]

I think better running economy comes from simply running more miles.

So all those miles I put in jogging are worthless then? Too bad, I had such high hopes. 

[siamesedream]

So all those miles I put in jogging are worthless then? Too bad, I had such high hopes. 

J*gging.

 

[caribougrrl]

my coworker who ran varsity cross-country back in his day is a big proponent of chi running... he says the biomechanics all make sense

he loaned me the book for a while... I didn't get as far as the biomechanics because the new-agey stuff (I suppose it's actually co-opted old-agey stuff) was too much of a turn-off.

I do, however, notice a decrease in how much I hate running when I concentrate on form: long straight spine, slight forward lean, stepping down instead of forward... what makes sense to me is the pushing rather than pulling with your legs, but you can do that with or without a forward lean




speaking of which, I presumed Ileneforward was a chi runner...

[VP of Tea]

I read the book and liked most of it. I ignore the new-agey stuff that doesn't do anything for me, but the form decriptions were helpful to me.

Of course I haven't run in 3 years. 

[JBM]

 I read the book many years ago when I had my first injury and didn't know what was wrong with me.  I can mail you the book and you can keep it, I sure as hell don't want it back!!

[i am party]

I believe that good form is an automatic by-product of high mileage. Beginners, and those who never run high mileage, I think, will benefit from some basic tutoring in running form. In that sense, I have no problem with a book like Chi Running, which devotes attention to running form.

My main problem with Chi Running, however, is the contention that leaning forward will cause gravity to propel you forward. I was once asked by an editor at Runner's World to clear up any confusion over this matter, and here was my reply:

---

To begin, let's assume that we're running on level ground (no hills) and that there's no wind.

I wouldn't advise forward lean--I'd require it.  In fact, as I'll explain below, it's impossible to run without a little forward lean.  The amount of lean may be imperceptible, but relative to your posture when you're standing still, it's there.  But does additional forward lean allow gravity to "propel you forward" or assist you in any way?  No, and this should not be taught as fact.  It is 100% false.  "Chi Running" is the one of the proponents of this reasoning.  I've tried to set them straight, but they never returned the few emails I sent them.  (Feel free to forward this message to Danny Dryer if you know him.)

A small amount of forward lean (relative to your standing posture) comes naturally.  Why?  Because of air drag.  Consider standing still while facing a 8 mi/h wind.  You have to lean forward to keep your normal balance.  It may not be much, but compared to a windless day, you're leaning.   Now consider running at a steady speed of 8 mi/h on level ground on a windless day.  Your motion creates an apparent headwind of 8 mi/h, which you have to lean into slightly to keep your normal balance.  (Don't believe that an 8 mi/h wind creates much force?  Make a cardboard cutout of yourself and walk around with it on a windy day.)

So far, the Chi Runner would probably agree with me but insist that additional lean is what allows gravity to "propel you forward."  To explain why this is false requires some science, but I'll try to keep it simple (if not fully rigorous).  Imagine standing still and letting yourself fall forward.  Hopefully at some point before hitting the ground you would "right" yourself by starting to run forward.   So if you lean forward your body automatically starts running.  Seems simple, right?  But here's the catch--as you are "righting" yourself, you are accelerating.  Your velocity is changing.  If you were to continue to use extra lean, you would have to continue accelerating in order to keep your balance.  But you can't keep accelerating.  You reach a speed of about 8 mi/h (a bit less for Chi Runners), and you continue at that speed.  The acceleration lasts only for a short time.  Watch a high-level 100 meter race and the effect is obvious.  Here's a good example.

Usain Bolt beats Gay and sets new Record - from Universal Sports

In the first part of the race, when the sprinters are accelerating, they are leaning forward.  But after about 30 meters, their speed doesn't change much, so no lean is necessary.  If gravity would help propel them forward, why not keep leaning?  Because it wouldn't help.

The simplest proof that gravity cannot propel you forward over level ground involves the concepts of work and energy.  When you run you are moving horizontally.  The force of gravity points directly downward.  In order for a force to provide energy, it must have at least some "component" in  the direction of the motion.  Gravity does not.  It is perpendicular to the motion.

---

[Belgian Lace]

It's actually the reason the phrase "shut up & run" was invented.

[tenacious1]

*snip*

Nicely explained.   

[cindyleigh]

I read the book many years ago when I had my first injury and didn't know what was wrong with me.  I can mail you the book and you can keep it, I sure as hell don't want it back!!

That JBM, I think I will look for the audiobook ...it may be easier to try the posture while listening.  But that was very nice of you 

I was once asked by an editor at Runner's World to clear up any confusion over this matter, and here was my reply:...

--

That was a great read!  Thanks!

[JimR]

You actually don't want much forward acceleration/propulsion when you run at a steady pace, it's wasted.  You need only enough to overcome air resistance, and this isn't much.

The 'lean' is actually unavoidable, for all runners.  When your foot is on the ground, it spends most of that time behind your center of mass, so you already incur a forward lean, like it or not.  Force application on that foot has both forward and upward components, and, unless you are accelerating, you want as little forward component as necessary.  otherwise you'll be forced to dump it by braking and wasting energy to maintain even pace.  You do need to overcome gravity, since very little of your stride has your foot directly under your center of mass, and that's where you want your energy to go.  Efficient running means keeping very little contact time with your foot on the ground and apply the most force with the foot close to directly underneath and slightly behind.

[Ileneforward]

Of course leaning forward is ideal!      But they are trying to make a *secret* out of it.

and jomike, that chia running does work!  To keep your noggin warm!

[Unidentified Flying Urchin]

I read the book and liked most of it. I ignore the new-agey stuff that doesn't do anything for me, but the form decriptions were helpful to me.

This exactly. Seems logical to sort your form out before upping the mileage at lot, but I'm no expert.

[i am party]

Thanks.

And if anyone wants the book, it's on my shelf and free to whomever wants to give me their address.

[Rochey]

I took a pose running clinic, which sounds similar, and here is my $.02.

I'm an accountant. I'm not a sports physiologist, chiropractor, or coach. I just run what I'm told to run, which tends to be lots of miles. Lots of miles that became lots of sloppy miles, and eventually my hip flexors, hamstrings, and glutes all said "no mas". I disagree with the idea that you'll perfect your form and gain efficiency with lots of miles. I think with lots of miles comes laziness and complacency.

Some of it was bunk. The thrust was to strike midfoot, engage your core, keep your shoulders, hips, legs square, and pull up rather than kick back. The idea is to take load off your quads. The biggest question mark I have is the consistent cadence...how can you do this if you're running easy or racing?

In general, I've incorporated some of the bullet points into my running because it really can't hurt. I'm not sure if I'm running relatively pain free because of that alone, or the combination with strength training and rehab. Anything that helps me focus on my form is probably worth the $50.

[siamesedream]

I do 100 meter strides and try to run them with decent form, my hope is that some of it will translate to better form on my longer runs.

[Fionn mac Cumhail]

The biggest question mark I have is the consistent cadence...how can you do this if you're running easy or racing?

Don't open up as much...I got pretty decent at 180 steps per minute whether slow or fast...but it NEVER felt natural, and I went back to my intrinsic gate...

[iwuzwilson]

I took a pose running clinic, which sounds similar, and here is my $.02.

I'm an accountant. I'm not a sports physiologist, chiropractor, or coach. I just run what I'm told to run, which tends to be lots of miles. Lots of miles that became lots of sloppy miles, and eventually my hip flexors, hamstrings, and glutes all said "no mas". I disagree with the idea that you'll perfect your form and gain efficiency with lots of miles. I think with lots of miles comes laziness and complacency.
Some of it was bunk. The thrust was to strike midfoot, engage your core, keep your shoulders, hips, legs square, and pull up rather than kick back. The idea is to take load off your quads. The biggest question mark I have is the consistent cadence...how can you do this if you're running easy or racing?

In general, I've incorporated some of the bullet points into my running because it really can't hurt. I'm not sure if I'm running relatively pain free because of that alone, or the combination with strength training and rehab. Anything that helps me focus on my form is probably worth the $50.

The drills and pick ups (which can be taken as form running) are supposed to help with that.

[Arrojo]

People are born knowing how to run naturally.  Watch children play - they run, they don't think about their form, they just do what comes naturally.  Everyone knows how to run.  It's not rocket science.  I tell people they shouldn't be messing around with their form too much, just run naturally.   Sure, you can tinker with it and find improvement.  But if you are thinking about your running form too much while you are running, you are doing it wrong.  Just run naturally.  rochey's post is a good reference for how tinkering may help you.  i am party's post explains in better detail why completely changing one's form , a la 'chi', is bunk.

One day a new woman showed up to one of our track practices.  She was doing the pose method, leaping around the track like a dear. She was a good runner, she was keeping up with the faster people.  But it looked ridiculous and anything but natural.  We never saw her again.  Not sure why.  I've seen some odd running styles in my day, but if running oddly is your natural way of running, then its perfectly fine.  Just run.

[fancypants]

To a certain extent we were born to run, but my natural running style has wreaked havoc on my aging body. Or maybe it's that my body isn't made for lots of running. If I kept running without some PT then I'm pretty sure I'd  eventually not be able to walk.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, though. I'm really just a hobby jogger.

[caribougrrl]

People are born knowing how to run naturally.  Watch children play - they run, they don't think about their form, they just do what comes naturally.  Everyone knows how to run.  It's not rocket science.  I tell people they shouldn't be messing around with their form too much, just run naturally.   Sure, you can tinker with it and find improvement.  But if you are thinking about your running form too much while you are running, you are doing it wrong.  Just run naturally.  rochey's post is a good reference for how tinkering may help you.  i am party's post explains in better detail why completely changing one's form , a la 'chi', is bunk.

One day a new woman showed up to one of our track practices.  She was doing the pose method, leaping around the track like a dear. She was a good runner, she was keeping up with the faster people.  But it looked ridiculous and anything but natural.  We never saw her again.  Not sure why.  I've seen some odd running styles in my day, but if running oddly is your natural way of running, then its perfectly fine.  Just run.

ironically, that's exactly how the chi running book starts...

[cindyleigh]

People are born knowing how to run naturally.  Watch children play - they run, they don't think about their form, they just do what comes naturally.  Everyone knows how to run.  It's not rocket science.  I tell people they shouldn't be messing around with their form too much, just run naturally.   Sure, you can tinker with it and find improvement.  But if you are thinking about your running form too much while you are running, you are doing it wrong.  Just run naturally.  rochey's post is a good reference for how tinkering may help you.  i am party's post explains in better detail why completely changing one's form , a la 'chi', is bunk.

One day a new woman showed up to one of our track practices.  She was doing the pose method, leaping around the track like a dear. She was a good runner, she was keeping up with the faster people.  But it looked ridiculous and anything but natural.  We never saw her again.  Not sure why.  I've seen some odd running styles in my day, but if running oddly is your natural way of running, then its perfectly fine.  Just run.

I just looked at some Pose running videos.  Its frustrating for me because when I watch these videos of pose or chi running, there are only a few secs. of folks actually running with these methods ...and they just look like they are running to me.

[Arrojo]

ironically, that's exactly how the chi running book starts...

It is ironic in that chi running is anything but natural.

[Rochey]

I just looked at some Pose running videos.  Its frustrating for me because when I watch these videos of pose or chi running, there are only a few secs. of folks actually running with these methods ...and they just look like they are running to me.

It's very subtle and no one can tell when I'm doing it. If nothing else, it helps me focus on engaging my core.