Caster Semenya loses landmark legal case against IAAF over testosterone levels

[Fast Eddie]

The 800m Olympic champion will have to take medication to reduce her testosterone if she wants to run internationally at events between 400m and a mile.

Sports scientist Ross Tucker, who was part of Semenya’s team of experts at Cas last month, believes it will mean the South African will run 800m around seven seconds slower – turning her from a world beater into an also-ran at that event. However she may now decide to step up to 5,000m where the IAAF’s rules on DSD athletes do not apply.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/01/caster-semenya-loses-landmark-legal-case-iaaf-athletics?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR0lQZnRJDXfiSchFW1Ua-KBLCzPP-SAiAd6LT0OvHKRzWnEgvlTwkj_NlQ

[Coyote Mas Loco]

There is no win here. But Caster can still run as female (with out drug treatment) in the 5000. 

[diablita]

There is no win here. But Caster can still run as female (with out drug treatment) in the 5000.

1!

[Richard21142]

I've watched him run a bunch of times.  I don't think he will do well in the 5000m.

[diablita]

You've watched her run, not him

[radial]

I'm okay with this as long as other competitors are allowed to amp up their testosterone levels to similar levels. 

[SnarlyMarly]

I'm okay with this as long as other competitors are allowed to amp up their testosterone levels to similar levels.

That starts a very bad precedence that we ought not go.    I think she will suck at the 5000 unless she gives up the 800....hoping anyway.  It didn’t work out well for FloJo but 100 to 5k
A little more of a jump.

[diablita]

Richard is being a dick

In all of the time I've been in the CH, I haven't once seen Richard intentionally being a dick so I was giving benefit of doubt

[Coyote Mas Loco]

That starts a very bad precedence that we ought not go.    I think she will suck at the 5000 unless she gives up the 800....hoping anyway.  It didn’t work out well for FloJo but 100 to 5k
A little more of a jump.

She beat Dominique Scott at their national championships in the 5000 last week. Scott was a 2016 Olympian for SA and has run right around 15:00, which is world class. Semenya won’t win an Olympic medal in the 5000 but could be a finalist and top 10. In my book that does not suck.

Coach Steve Magness had a good string of comments Twitter the other day I’ll try to link it.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

https://mobile.twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1124031029092782082?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Here it is.

[radial]

In all of the time I've been in the CH, I haven't once seen Richard intentionally being a dick so I was giving benefit of doubt

Oh, I thought that was just Randy dicking around with the fact that Dick is a nickname for Richard. 

[SnarlyMarly]

She beat Dominique Scott at their national championships in the 5000 last week. Scott was a 2016 Olympian for SA and has run right around 15:00, which is world class. Semenya won’t win an Olympic medal in the 5000 but could be a finalist and top 10. In my book that does not suck.

Coach Steve Magness had a good string of comments Twitter the other day I’ll try to link it.

Nope, most definitely does not suck.   I was hoping that she would.  Couldn’t just be happy screwing up middle distances.

And I guess, with that, you know where I stand.   If a woman would get banned for taking prednisone because her asthma can’t be controlled in god forsaken polluted cities like Beijing, then this woman should not compete with high levels of testosterone either.   At the very least. 

[RandMart]

In all of the time I've been in the CH, I haven't once seen Richard intentionally being a dick so I was giving benefit of doubt

I defer to your familiarity, but in my experience, deliberately fucking with a person's pronouns is a dick move

YMMV

[radial]

Oh, I thought that was just Randy dicking around with the fact that Dick is a nickname for Richard.

Okay, I stand corrected.  You can't save people who are determined to be wrong. 

[Chasing Amy]

There is no win here. But Caster can still run as female (with out drug treatment) in the 5000. 

Agreed. Caster Semenya did NOTHING WRONG and she was absolutely dragged through the mud by the IAAF, starting when she was just a teenager. Her body naturally produces higher levels of testosterone than the average woman, but not as much as the average man. If she were to take medication to suppress the testosterone, what would that do to her health? 

She absolutely has/had an advantage over her competitors, but what is construed as an "advantage?" Testosterone, okay. Larger lung capacity? More/less muscular build? Is the IAAF going to start regulating naturally occurring levels of T in men? It's murky territory.

And Richard, she is a woman.

[diablita]

1! to all of that, Chasing Amy.  I don't envy the IAAF having to make these decisions one bit.  But they handled it terribly. 

[SnarlyMarly]

Agreed. Caster Semenya did NOTHING WRONG and she was absolutely dragged through the mud by the IAAF, starting when she was just a teenager. Her body naturally produces higher levels of testosterone than the average woman, but not as much as the average man. If she were to take medication to suppress the testosterone, what would that do to her health? 

She absolutely has/had an advantage over her competitors, but what is construed as an "advantage?" Testosterone, okay. Larger lung capacity? More/less muscular build? Is the IAAF going to start regulating naturally occurring levels of T in men? It's murky territory.

And Richard, she is a woman.

Lung capacity has never been a determining factor of which category you run in.   And if testosterone were to be treated like lung capacity, ALL woman would be able to use whatever means to increase it to their benefit.   Not all people can train at altitude, so they use machines and tents.   So by the same standard, women should now only be DQd by the same level standards as men.

[diablita]

Full release from the IAAF:

https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/iaaf-letter-wma

[Mrtambourineman]

All elite athletes are genetic freaks in some fashion - its why they are elite.  This is a tough situation and I don't know that everyone would be satisfied with any outcome on her case.  Have they addressed transgendered athletes yet? 

[Coyote Mas Loco]

It's not just the extra testosterone, it's the Y chromosome and internal testes. Those are significant biological differences. And as I alluded early on in this thread, no good solution. Splitting out the 5000 might work in this case, but what happens when there is a similar case of a distance runner who runs 14:10 and 29:00 for 5 and 10K?

[Coyote Mas Loco]

More from iaaf on female eligibility in athletics -

https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Y'know - when you don't capitalize it - "iaaf" kinds looks like "laff"

Might you need reading glasses?

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Caster is running the Diamond League 3000 m in the Prefontaine Classic (at Stanford, not Eugene this year because the stadium at Eugene was demolished and rebuilt) this weekend. It should be a great race with many of the best in the world competing - Ayana, Siffan Hassan, Obiri. Only 2 Americans in the field, Rachel Schneider ran a 15:06 5000 the other week but she'll probably only be about 8th at best.

[diablita]

She is very clearly showing that she won't take the route of changing her testosterone levels.  I hope she does well.  It's a very stacked field and won't be easy but hopefully that will pull her to even stronger results.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Multi-world record holder G. Dibaba is also in the field.
Karissa Schweizer (just out of college) is the other American.

It will be interesting to see how Semenya holds up against the Americans. They (Semenya and Americans) should be in the 8:40s - 8:50s; leaders in 8:30s, maybe the winner or top two under 8:30.

[Arrojo]

Lung capacity has never been a determining factor of which category you run in.   And if testosterone were to be treated like lung capacity, ALL woman would be able to use whatever means to increase it to their benefit.   

Not necessarily.  Caster's testosterone situation is similar to Coyote's lung capacity (  yes I went there).  It's a natural occurrence, giving the athlete a competitive advantage.  Why not treat natural bodily advantages like natural bodily advantages, nothing more.  It doesn't mean allowing all women to turn into the East Germans.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Not necessarily.  Caster's testosterone situation is similar to Coyote's lung capacity (  yes I went there).  It's a natural occurrence, giving the athlete a competitive advantage.  Why not treat natural bodily advantages like natural bodily advantages, nothing more.  It doesn't mean allowing all women to turn into the East Germans.

https://tenor.com/search/coffee-spill-gifs

Yes there are genetic anomalies but the difference between gentic advantage - say Michael Phelps' huge feet or Wild Chamberlain's size and agility and cases like Caster Semenya and Margaret Wambui (also affected by the recent ruling) is that these middle distance runners are intersex. And in Semenya's case at least (not sure about Wambui), she has a Y chromosome.

I have an opinion on all this, don't know if it's right. And in fact nothing seems right. Caster racing against women born without the chromosomal and testosterone advantages does not seem fair, but nor do the rulings which seem arbitrary.   

[diablita]

I have an opinion on all this, don't know if it's right. And in fact nothing seems right. Caster racing against women born without the chromosomal and testosterone advantages does not seem fair, but nor do the rulings which seem arbitrary.   

1 to all of it

It would be fantastic if there were enough intersex athletes to create another division.  It's not realistic.  And also it's not just enough to have competitors, as women's sports show us across the whole spectrum of sports.  There also has to be interest in watching them AND revenue generation and still if the powers that be don't want to pay them as well, they won't.

[nadra's babydaddy]

She should just get a wolf.  As should all intersex athletes.   Then they can compete in their own human vs. wolf division!  That should be a decent revenue generator. 

[Coyote Mas Loco]

1 to all of it

It would be fantastic if there were enough intersex athletes to create another division.  It's not realistic.  And also it's not just enough to have competitors, as women's sports show us across the whole spectrum of sports.  There also has to be interest in watching them AND revenue generation and still if the powers that be don't want to pay them as well, they won't.

I agree with creating division for intersex and transgender athletes. The Paralympics started out small and now the events capture worldwide attention.

[nadra's babydaddy]

Spreading to high school now.... https://www.boston.com/news/high-school-sports/2019/06/19/connecticut-high-school-track-transgender-athletes?fbclid=IwAR15cGdMS1v_S6e5lkWXyOng4tdyJfEXZZbWkIrj_mX8aZMMP72VQsmYDxk

In fairness CT is one of the states with people chomping at the bit to sue if so much as Dunkin messes up their coffee.  But this issue definitely needs to be addressed. 

[Coyote Mas Loco]

I always thought the chorus of Talking Heads "The Big Country" referred to New Jersey [David Byrne - being a New Yorker - is morally obligated to hate NJ]

I wouldn't live there if you paid me
I wouldn't live like that, no Siree
I wouldn't do the things the way those people do
I wouldn't live there if you paid me to

I realized a while ago, it was actually about Connecticut

I always thought it was the heartland they were singing about.
Goo goo goo ga ga ga

That a Christian right group is pursuing this with a vengeance is not good.

[Coyote Mas Loco]

Due to the ruling from the Swiss court last month Semenya is now eligible to run in IAAF 800s again. So she switched from the 3000 for the upcoming Pre Classic to the 800.