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Author Topic: Speaking of cheating  (Read 476 times)

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Offline SnarlyMarly

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Speaking of cheating
« on: January 09, 2018, 01:06:00 PM »
So about a year ago a runner I know contacted me and she moved and was running with a certain running club.   She said a memember of the club was a doctor and to,d her to start taking.....and it was a long list.

She revealed that the doctor is a female 50+ runner that had never broken 1:30 for half before and just went 1:24.

So along with the iron and b-12 injections, the list include DHEA, progesterone and testosterone.   I wrote back that Steroids are not allowed period and that maybe progesterone and DHEA allowed under doctor supervision for menopause.  I left it at that and figured "well now she knows and if she does take them it's on her"

Seeing how much she wins and races per social media...I can assume she listened to her new friend. 

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 01:36:00 PM »
Am I to understand that they're BOTH doping? Her and the doctor-runner?

On the one hand, it may be a legit TUE [Therapeutic Use Exemption] but on the other hand, that seems like pretty excessive cocktail

I'm guessing the races she's winning aren't drug testing

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Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 04:44:34 PM »
Masters gray area. But if they can get a TUE for DHEA and testosterone, it would be hard to enforce. With women it might be easier to throw up a red flag if hormone ratios are way out of line. A record breaking female masters runner--trails and ultras I think--was caught and banned a couple years ago for DHEA. She was a PT but claimed that she didn't know that that was not legal. Testing is practically non-existent for masters. 
t.

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 07:58:14 PM »
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline SnarlyMarly

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 07:58:45 AM »
Masters gray area. But if they can get a TUE for DHEA and testosterone, it would be hard to enforce. With women it might be easier to throw up a red flag if hormone ratios are way out of line. A record breaking female masters runner--trails and ultras I think--was caught and banned a couple years ago for DHEA. She was a PT but claimed that she didn't know that that was not legal. Testing is practically non-existent for masters.


But even then, she was at an event with random testing and she didn't even win the masters title...wasn't she second.    I have only seen testing once and it was Ottawa marathon.   But even there they only appeared interested in the top Canadian athletes.   For many years, the marathons in my area gave prize money.  Russian women had a field day.  Would easily pick up 2500-5k for 2:40 marathon and then do another one the next weekend.


Offline Arrojo

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 01:58:12 PM »
Testing is practically non-existent for masters. 

At the National T&F Championships, they do test for PEDs actually.  Everyone who finishes in the top 3 in every age group in every event gets tested and all others (also-rans like me) get randomly tested.   They haven't tested me yet.   8)  Of course, many older athletes are on all kinds of medications.  A recent controversy erupted over a 70 year old guy who was getting testosterone treatments (legitimately for a condition), but they wouldn't let him compete.


A friend of mine tested positive for something and had to forfeit her National age-group 60m hurdling championship and is kicked out of competition for 2 years.  She's still my friend but I'm pissed at her (and no I am not naming names here).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:22:36 PM by Arrojo »
Baseball sucks.

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 03:31:46 PM »
Everyone here has seen Icarus, right?

Icarus | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 03:35:03 PM »
She's still my friend but I'm pissed at her (and no I am not naming names here).

No need to name names, but are double letters involved here?

Simple Yes or No would suffice
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 03:37:18 PM »
At the National T&F Championships, they do test for PEDs actually.  Everyone who finishes in the top 3 in every age group in every event gets tested and all others (also-rans like me) get randomly tested.   They haven't tested me yet.   8)  Of course, many older athletes are on all kinds of medications.  A recent controversy erupted over a 70 year old guy who was getting testosterone treatments (legitimately for a condition), but they wouldn't let him compete.


A friend of mine tested positive for something and had to forfeit her National age-group 60m hurdling championship and is kicked out of competition for 2 years.  She's still my friend but I'm pissed at her (and no I am not naming names here).

knew your friend online from another forum, on which she no longer participates

they didn't test on he roads in Tulsa nor as far as I could tell at club xc this fall, but good to hear that they are testing at T&F championships; nor did they test at usa xc masters championships

NYRR does test masters at some events; I raced there last spring but it was probably seen as more of a fun run (no prizes or anything) even though there were 3000 or 4000 runners in it

speaking of which, WMA championships in Toronto next year - I am Loco enough to consider doing the 10000 m.

t.

Offline Arrojo

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 07:08:27 PM »
No need to name names, but are double letters involved here?

Simple Yes or No would suffice

No
Baseball sucks.

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 07:56:56 PM »
So about a year ago a runner I know contacted me and she moved and was running with a certain running club.   She said a memember of the club was a doctor and to,d her to start taking.....and it was a long list.

She revealed that the doctor is a female 50+ runner that had never broken 1:30 for half before and just went 1:24.

So along with the iron and b-12 injections, the list include DHEA, progesterone and testosterone.   I wrote back that Steroids are not allowed period and that maybe progesterone and DHEA allowed under doctor supervision for menopause.  I left it at that and figured "well now she knows and if she does take them it's on her"

Seeing how much she wins and races per social media...I can assume she listened to her new friend.

Wikipedia:

"Testosterone and other androgens have an erythropoietic stimulating effect that can cause polycythemia, which manifests as an increase in hemoglobin, hematocrit, or red blood cell count."

So how is this any different than taking EPO, CERA or other drugs to jack up the red blood cell count. Two of the 2:18 female marathoners were caught cheating with chemicals. The 50 year old female isn't any different.

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 08:10:07 PM »

Offline Arrojo

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 09:46:29 PM »
knew your friend online from another forum, on which she no longer participates

they didn't test on he roads in Tulsa nor as far as I could tell at club xc this fall, but good to hear that they are testing at T&F championships; nor did they test at usa xc masters championships

NYRR does test masters at some events; I raced there last spring but it was probably seen as more of a fun run (no prizes or anything) even though there were 3000 or 4000 runners in it

speaking of which, WMA championships in Toronto next year - I am Loco enough to consider doing the 10000 m.


I think itís a USATF thing. Also at the worldís. Good luck!  Iím just happy competing and not embarrassing myself at nationals Ė I canít imagine doing worlds.
Baseball sucks.

Offline SnarlyMarly

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 10:37:26 AM »
Everyone here has seen Icarus, right?

Icarus | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix


Nope....sometimes I just want to stay in my world of naivety and believe that doping doesn't happen at age group level.

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 11:16:31 AM »
Well, that's how the movie starts ... then it becomes something completely different  :panic:
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2018, 12:12:49 PM »
I never saw the movie.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/27/573870686/russian-doping-whistleblower-says-he-fears-for-his-life

Does the movie portray the real story?

The question is who do you think is clean in all sports?

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 12:26:37 PM »
This guy was in his 50's and ran up to 182 miles in a week for training plus speedwork.
Runners World:
"recognizes that the body weight factor plays into his improved times, but adds that he's comfortable with his current regimen and so sees no reason to experiment with fewer miles at this time. He believes that doing roughly 40 percent of his mileage on the treadmill is easier on his body, where he runs on a 3 percent decline, which gives him faster turnover.

Zalokar has his sights set on the 2013 Rotterdam Marathon and a new personal best, possibly even a sub-2:30. "There are always new races to run, new mountains to climb, and new countries to visit," he says.

TRAINING REGIMEN

September 2-15, 2012, in preparation for Oct. 7 Chicago Marathon (2:35:10)

SUNDAY: Half marathon race as training run in 1:22:47; 15 miles total
MONDAY AM: Half marathon tempo run on treadmill in 1:21, 3-mile cool-down; NOON: 10 miles on road, easy (8-9 minutes/mile); PM: 7 miles on road, easy
TUESDAY AM: 12 miles on treadmill (7-7:20 minutes/mile); NOON: (track) 2-mile warm-up, 10 ◊ 400 @ 78-71 seconds with 200m jog between and 1.5-mile cool-down
WEDNESDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 8-mile tempo run in 44:26 on treadmill, 3-mile cool-down; NOON: 7 miles on road, easy; PM: 6 miles on road, easy
THURSDAY AM: 14 miles on treadmill, easy; NOON: 9 miles on road, easy
FRIDAY: 11 miles on treadmill, easy
SATURDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 7◊2-mile repeats on treadmill at 11.4-11.2 mph, 4◊400m @ 13.1 mph, 3-mile cool-down; NOON: 4 miles on road, easy
SUNDAY AM: 32 miles on road, easy; PM: 8 miles on road, easy
MONDAY AM: Half marathon tempo run in 1:20 on treadmill, cool-down until 16 miles total; NOON: 9 miles on road, easy; PM: 7 miles on road, easy
TUESDAY AM: 13 miles on treadmill, easy; NOON: (track) half-mile warm-up, 8◊800m @ 2:49-2:39 with 200m jog between, 1.5-mile cool-down
WEDNESDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 8 mile tempo run in 43:19 on treadmill, 4-mile cool-down; NOON: 7 miles on road, easy; PM: 6 miles on road, easy
THURSDAY AM: 16 miles on treadmill, easy; NOON: 9 miles on road, easy
FRIDAY: 12 miles on treadmill, easy
SATURDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 7◊2-mile repeats on treadmill @ 11.5-11.2 mph, 4◊400s @ 13.2 mph, 4-mile cool-down; NOON: 5 miles on road, easy"
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:29:12 PM by Fred »

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 02:28:22 PM »
Does the movie portray the real story?

Yes, as it is happening, in fact

NO SPOILERS, but there are a couple points were you think "Oh fuck, he's dead, or will be soon"

Of course, that's only from the AMERICAN POV; in Russia, it was all made up by a delusional schizophrenic
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 12:04:26 PM »
Talking Heads - Live in Rome 1980 - 05 Drugs


Pills (Official Visual)
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline Rochey

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2018, 03:36:50 PM »
So about a year ago a runner I know contacted me and she moved and was running with a certain running club.   She said a memember of the club was a doctor and to,d her to start taking.....and it was a long list.

She revealed that the doctor is a female 50+ runner that had never broken 1:30 for half before and just went 1:24.

So along with the iron and b-12 injections, the list include DHEA, progesterone and testosterone.   I wrote back that Steroids are not allowed period and that maybe progesterone and DHEA allowed under doctor supervision for menopause.  I left it at that and figured "well now she knows and if she does take them it's on her"

Seeing how much she wins and races per social media...I can assume she listened to her new friend. 

I want what she's on!   :D

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 04:11:20 PM »
This guy was in his 50's and ran up to 182 miles in a week for training plus speedwork.
Runners World:
"recognizes that the body weight factor plays into his improved times, but adds that he's comfortable with his current regimen and so sees no reason to experiment with fewer miles at this time. He believes that doing roughly 40 percent of his mileage on the treadmill is easier on his body, where he runs on a 3 percent decline, which gives him faster turnover.

Zalokar has his sights set on the 2013 Rotterdam Marathon and a new personal best, possibly even a sub-2:30. "There are always new races to run, new mountains to climb, and new countries to visit," he says.

TRAINING REGIMEN

September 2-15, 2012, in preparation for Oct. 7 Chicago Marathon (2:35:10)

SUNDAY: Half marathon race as training run in 1:22:47; 15 miles total
MONDAY AM: Half marathon tempo run on treadmill in 1:21, 3-mile cool-down; NOON: 10 miles on road, easy (8-9 minutes/mile); PM: 7 miles on road, easy
TUESDAY AM: 12 miles on treadmill (7-7:20 minutes/mile); NOON: (track) 2-mile warm-up, 10 ◊ 400 @ 78-71 seconds with 200m jog between and 1.5-mile cool-down
WEDNESDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 8-mile tempo run in 44:26 on treadmill, 3-mile cool-down; NOON: 7 miles on road, easy; PM: 6 miles on road, easy
THURSDAY AM: 14 miles on treadmill, easy; NOON: 9 miles on road, easy
FRIDAY: 11 miles on treadmill, easy
SATURDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 7◊2-mile repeats on treadmill at 11.4-11.2 mph, 4◊400m @ 13.1 mph, 3-mile cool-down; NOON: 4 miles on road, easy
SUNDAY AM: 32 miles on road, easy; PM: 8 miles on road, easy
MONDAY AM: Half marathon tempo run in 1:20 on treadmill, cool-down until 16 miles total; NOON: 9 miles on road, easy; PM: 7 miles on road, easy
TUESDAY AM: 13 miles on treadmill, easy; NOON: (track) half-mile warm-up, 8◊800m @ 2:49-2:39 with 200m jog between, 1.5-mile cool-down
WEDNESDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 8 mile tempo run in 43:19 on treadmill, 4-mile cool-down; NOON: 7 miles on road, easy; PM: 6 miles on road, easy
THURSDAY AM: 16 miles on treadmill, easy; NOON: 9 miles on road, easy
FRIDAY: 12 miles on treadmill, easy
SATURDAY AM: 2-mile warm-up, 7◊2-mile repeats on treadmill @ 11.5-11.2 mph, 4◊400s @ 13.2 mph, 4-mile cool-down; NOON: 5 miles on road, easy"

he's in my age group, but known as more of a marathoner and has had a great string of success at that distance - I was 2 for 2 on him this fall at 15K and 10K XC.
t.

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2018, 06:58:51 AM »
Yes, were you born at altitude? How much Nordic skiing do you do at altitude.
Congrats.

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2018, 07:59:53 AM »
Yes born at altitude--so maybe that helps some? That's the theory anyway.

Ski about once a week, at 8500-9500 ft or sometimes 10000+ if I do a big climb. And I run at 7000-8000 about 2x a week, other days at 5200-6000 ft.

Zalokar was not running as fast as 2011-2016, and doing some shorter races instead of the marathon. Maybe he's only a 60 mph instead of 180? 
t.

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2018, 10:35:02 AM »
Yes born at altitude--so maybe that helps some? That's the theory anyway.

Ski about once a week, at 8500-9500 ft or sometimes 10000+ if I do a big climb. And I run at 7000-8000 about 2x a week, other days at 5200-6000 ft.

Zalokar was not running as fast as 2011-2016, and doing some shorter races instead of the marathon. Maybe he's only a 60 mph instead of 180?

On the Runners World page in the mileage it says a tempo run of 8 miles which I calculate at 5:25 a mile. Maybe it on a decline on a treadmill, but if its actually tempo, you would expect race pace at 5:10 to 5:15 a mile.

If he dropped mileage, I would expect 5 minute pace from him. So is it all bullshit?

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 10:39:31 AM »
My buddy did Nordic skiing in an altitude simulator in the early 80's and he ran 51 minutes for 10 miles at low altitude. ( Crim )

Ryan Hall lived at Big Bear altitude in his formative years.

I'd like to see the science behind altitude born or raised runners.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:43:47 AM by Fred »

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 11:25:57 AM »
Chris Froome is from Kenya
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 01:54:27 PM »
On the Runners World page in the mileage it says a tempo run of 8 miles which I calculate at 5:25 a mile. Maybe it on a decline on a treadmill, but if its actually tempo, you would expect race pace at 5:10 to 5:15 a mile.

If he dropped mileage, I would expect 5 minute pace from him. So is it all bullshit?

Interesting - yeah a tempo like that indicates sub low or 32 10K and sub 2:30 marathon fitness, which may well been close to where he was in his early 50s. But maybe it's catching up. I noticed his 5K time at USATF (Syracuse) last fall wasn't off the charts like his longer stuff has been, and he was at about the same level for later races. Maybe taking it easier for the fall.

I was totally intimidated lining up next to him in October.
t.

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 03:38:54 PM »
Chris Froome is from Kenya

Wow. First 12 years at 5889 feet altitude.

Offline nadra24

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 11:39:19 AM »
That's fascinating that progesterone is in the cocktail of performance-enhancing drugs, when I've taken it for fertility treatments it's made me feel like crap. Even thinking about going for a run was exhausting.

Offline Fast Eddie

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2018, 09:37:50 PM »

speaking of which, WMA championships in Toronto next year - I am Loco enough to consider doing the 10000 m.

Let me know if you do make it to Toronto.  MEETUPMEETUPMEETUP!
Live, learn, have amazing sex, and move on!!  :D - floridagal

Offline Plugging Along

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2018, 11:11:50 PM »
That's fascinating that progesterone is in the cocktail of performance-enhancing drugs, when I've taken it for fertility treatments it's made me feel like crap. Even thinking about going for a run was exhausting.

I think progesterone might be a masking drug used to hide the other stuff.
Barry Bonds was taking a fertility drug to hide the steroids.

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 08:42:03 AM »
Let me know if you do make it to Toronto.  MEETUPMEETUPMEETUP!

I'll let you know. It's on my radar, these things don't come to North America very often.
t.

Offline RandMart

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"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline Fred

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 08:40:02 AM »
I'll let you know. It's on my radar, these things don't come to North America very often.

I ran North American masters 400 meters in Toronto at 40. I will come and cheer.

Offline RandMart

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 09:23:12 AM »
I ran North American masters 400 meters in Toronto at 40. I will come and cheer.
I'll let you know. It's on my radar, these things don't come to North America very often.

Take this shit offline

Focus, dipshits
"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline RandMart

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"I thought it over and have decided to say: Your comment is quite possibly one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on Slowtwitch, which is kind of like saying, 'this might just be the worst 3-bean salad Iíve ever had at Sizzler.'"

Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2018, 02:51:44 PM »
56 year old triathlete busted for therapeutic T: https://www.usada.org/bill-beyer-accepts-doping-sanction/
But it's largely procedural--he didn't report his use and get a therapeutic use exception (TUE).

Meanwhile 44 year old cyclist Jeffery Miller was suspended for using a testosterone-HGH cocktail. https://www.usada.org/jeffery-miller-accepts-sanction/
t.

Offline SnarlyMarly

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 03:10:30 PM »
56 year old triathlete busted for therapeutic T: https://www.usada.org/bill-beyer-accepts-doping-sanction/
But it's largely procedural--he didn't report his use and get a therapeutic use exception (TUE).

Meanwhile 44 year old cyclist Jeffery Miller was suspended for using a testosterone-HGH cocktail. https://www.usada.org/jeffery-miller-accepts-sanction/





Like my "friend" you wonder how someone wakes up someday and says "I am going to start taking a bunch of banned substances"

https://enduranceworks.com/images/stories/downloadable_pdf/tdc_i11_beyer_project.pdf


Offline Coyote Mas Loco

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Re: Speaking of cheating
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2018, 03:38:44 PM »


Like my "friend" you wonder how someone wakes up someday and says "I am going to start taking a bunch of banned substances"

https://enduranceworks.com/images/stories/downloadable_pdf/tdc_i11_beyer_project.pdf

You could ask if she has a TUE and if not, maybe she should get one. And if she doesn't (over a period of time) you could drop a dime on her. 
t.

 

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